TECHNIQUES EQUAL FINITE THOUGHT

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Northern Praying Mantis
1

Seven Star PM (as well all PM) is based on Principles(keywords)and creature imitations or impressions and a whole host of intangibles but, it is not based on techniques. For example the principle ou or gou; hook. When this principle is used as an action it is not just limited to the arms hands, legs and feet ,it can also be a strategic way of approaching combat much the same way a fisherman uses a hook and bait. The fish is so occupied by the bait he knows not the hook. Approaching mantis as a way of thinking and being is only limited by your level of understand imagination and will(yes there are many other limitations)BUT, approaching with the thought of finding techniques or moves is finite. if the move does not work or if the opponent does not co-operate what then? After all no except the inferior opponent stands there with his arms out waiting for the next technique. Just something to think about don’t you think?

Sifu Thomas

2

Very Interesting

Sifu Thomas,

I find that very interesting and a excellent learning experience. Thats what I love in particular about praying mantis kung fu (over other styles) and seven star in paticular.

With mantis it is easy to flow from one theory, technique or principle to another. I think this enables the artist to flow like water and absorb or adjust to any situation. To continue to stick and move, even if one is hit, the impact can be absorbed, redirected to a counterattack.

From the brief but rather informational conversation with Sifu Albright in New York, he was sharing with me the issue of the key word formulas and how they are not static, but interchangeable and can be used in and out of order as the situation deems fit.

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Sifu Thomas,

Mantis has quite an arsenal when it comes to the various ways to deal with a move that doesn't work or the uncooperative.  As you have stated "Approaching mantis as a way of thinking and being is only limited by your level of understand imagination and will..."  I find that there are always ways to go, the question is how imagnative do I want to be.  To me, Mantis should be flowing and continuously hitting, even when a counter attack is mounted.  The techniques, theories, and principles should be second nature and as such they become infinitely diverse in the combinations that one can come up with.

HK

4

reply to hk

perhaps I wasn’t clear in my initial post. what I was trying to talk about is the current trend where kung fu styles teach by way of pre-arranged techniques. In my humble opinion that is a short cut to limitations and It does not help our style live. Another thing that contributes to CMA errotion is just learning the moves from a specific style and not learning what the movements are call,not learning any theory,not learning any history,and not learning the intent. This to me kills kung fu so, you will see practioners trying to made kung fu into tae kwon do(I have mad respect for TKD, but it is not KF) because they just learned forms and moves. The next thing you see is KF 1 step sparring. (when I use the term kung fu I primarily mean 7* PM) Also the idea of blocking as opposed to intercepting is another step backward for KF. Check your PM 12 keywords and find the keyword for block(“uh not”) and check you 18 styles for there keyword for block (same thing no block )!

[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Sifu Thomas

5

learning..

“perhaps I wasn’t clear in my initial post. what I was trying to talk about is the current trend here kung fu styles teach by way of pre-arranged techniques.”
Hmmm,…while teaching students, why would you not want to use pre-arranged technique?? When first learning to do math, reading or anything else that I can remember, the easy cut& dry answers/questions are always asked first. Asking a child to do physics using the conceptual techniques of math will get a blank look…
After a student has been “graduated” if you will to mid/upper levels, then I can agree with you.
-BTL

“Ever dance with the Devil in the pale moonlight?”

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I think I get what you’re saying, Sifu Thomas. I do find that when people only look at the techniques themselves, they miss so much of what the technique itself can do, what the technique can turn into, what the technique means to your mind and body, and what the entire system is doing for you and showing you about yourself and humanity as a whole. To look just for the technique is to only see the system and the world in one dimension.

Am I on the right track?

Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.

7

Sifu Thomas,

I now see where you're coming from.  I don't see anything wrong with starting out an introductory through basic level student with a set of pre-arranged techniques.  These people need structure and repetition in order to advance successfully to the next level.  Now don't take this as "There's only one response for every attack"  there isn't.  What I'm saying is that limit the amount of choices a beginner gets.  In doing this you don't overwhelm them with the vast amount of technique that Mantis has to offer.  As the person advances and they're used moving through this structure, then you begin to give them more material thus creating more ways to engage an opponent.

I am also disheartened by what passes for KF in the U.S. To those who train traditionally I mean no offense, but all too often I see the instant gradification schools that specialize in handing out sashes/belts to unqualified individuals. There has to be a point in which a person or group of people say that it ends here I/we will not help perpetuate the killing of our style of martial arts. I/we will teach quaility martial arts to the best of my/our ability. If not they will eventually disappear and become extinct like the dinosaur.

HK

8

reply to robinf

bingo robinf, Kung-fu should always try to have a higher standard. Sometimes when I teach a line from a form I ask the student what they would use it for then, I ask them to try it against a classmate then, in controlled sparring drills where the co-operation element has been removed. Trust me it is not easy but, it is very rewarding as well as humbling. In answer to the other post: pre-arranged attacks and counters are good for demos,good for creating a false sense of confidence and maybe good for conditioning ( the list could go on an on ) but, when the co-operation is gone what then? Kung-fu usage is like the animals we seek to imitate
unpredictable and ever changing. I am a strong advocate of basic training including lohan gung,sandbag conditioning, stance and movement drilling as well as paired drilling but, the best way to learn mantis applications is to use it against someone. Hopefully in the kwoon at first and then when outside the kwoon only to protect oneself or loved ones.I will take both of your response and try learn from then. thanx

Sifu Thomas

[This message was edited by Sifu O. Thomas on 11-01-00 at 10:03 AM.]

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streetfights

I’ve read many posts now where people ask which style or system is best in a streetfight. What is that about?
And also posts about what style is superior?
Three years ago I couldn’t end a fight without knocking someone out. Now I’ve been training 7*PM a while now and I haven’t hurt anyone in two years. Sure I could but I also have the power not to. That’s what it all should be about. I know people who take classes so they can go fight at saturday-night. I think there is way to much of that.
Anyone who have a bit of skill and have been in a fight knows that being focused on one style makes you more predictable. If you mix varied styles your opponent will get both confused and have a harder time predicting your next move.
I also don’t like the use of belts. They don’t mean anything. The skill is within you, not around your waist!

<font color = “#000033”> [b]D[b]reamer</font>

10

Finite Thought

Well, I have to agree with Sifu Thomas;you see you can’t teach/learn KF the same way you teach/learn sport karate.When you teach/learn supposed fighting techniques it’s in such a confined/controlling mind set that it becomes almost if not impossible to break away from.You see fighting is not merely hit or be hit, fighting is psychological. Learning in such a restricted manner(techniques) hinders proper growth. Now lets not forget muscle memory (your muscles or body remember repetitive actions)making you both physically and mentally confined.To further support my argument no two people attack the same way kick/punch or whatever unless it is pre-arranged which as my Sifu has said builds a false sense of security in ones ability to defend against a real attacker. So than “Ou” is not merely a fighting technique confined by the body but an idea, a thought which has infinite possibilities if only in one mind at a time. Limited only by imagination, understanding, and oh yeah your level of skill.

Chatsing: Sifu Mike Whetstone:

[This message was edited by Michael Whetstone on 11-04-00 at 11:16 PM.]

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Finite thought revisited

It has been sometime and I must thank my student for helping me engage in the on going search for useful exchange between mantis practioners. As it says in my profile; I am trying to advance the mantis style so, with this in mind I will revisit my original post in the effort of continuing this useful discussion(whew ). Why do we continue to this block punch kick chop way of thinking or non-thinking in mantis training. I see this in post after post. I will state again mantis is based on principles that are open to varying levels of understanding. I would hope that we promote the highest levels. Thanks again to my student and I will continue to participate in this wonderful forum.

  Thanx, Sifu Thomas
12

Question?

(Bowing In)
Much respect to everybody!!
Attn:Dreamer

You mentioned that one how specializes in one styles becomes predictable, how??? Are you refering to what can happen on the streets, in classroom or in a ring.

Also what aspect would be predictable the stance work or they way the person fights, granted if the person is a fighter and fought against the style before or have studied the style.

13

Techniques get you thinking in a certain way, after you see enough of them, you can move from the waist, follow movement, trap, adhere creativly and as the situation demands.

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it’s all about?

share kung fu vids…www.imesh.com

14

Interesting thread indeed … I also agree that the beauty of PM is that there is no limitation to applying the concepts in a certain situation – for every technique your oppenent throws at you, there is an infinite number of counters, and so forth ..

I agree with Sifu Thomas in that the learning and focusing on pre-arranged patterns and technique counters can be detrimental to the practitioner and even the preservation of the system as a whole. Obviously, beginning students have to spend some time drilling basic techniques, but as one’s phsyical skill progresses, so too should their thinking.

When we practice applications in our school, Sifu will begin with a certain attack and show a possible counter-attack. After this is practiced though, we discuss and practice alternate counters and even alternate counterattacks by the opponent. To me, this is a liberating type of exercise, because it forces you to think creatively and to always be devising new possibilities. It involves as much mental work as it does physical. And of course, Sifu never ceases to amaze me in that no matter how you counter how you try to attack him, he has a counterattack ready, and every time it is something different.

When we do these application exercises, it is all random - each class a new situation is presented, and so every time it is new. I think this is the best way to practice, rather than learning a preset formula - because when you really need to apply your skills in reality, nothing is set in stone and you have to be prepared for anything. Your attacker will not wait for you to finish your technique, nor does the average street fighter use the same style as a martial artist.

Learning and repeating specific sets of moves may be useful in point-based tournaments, but in the end that is still a controlled setting and very different from what you might encounter on the street.

To me, this does take a certain level of mastery but its an ideal that we should all strive for. I still have a tendency to over-analzye the fighting process, and catch myself falling back on familiar sequences. But its a constant, never-ending learning process. And it will help preserve the integrity of CMA and the praying mantis system as well.

‘Adversity is a mirror that reveals one’s true self’

[This message was edited by 7starmantis on 04-18-01 at 02:00 AM.]

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Bravo 7starmantis

I think you understand what I was saying. Remember that contrary to popular belief PM as a combat art is well over 2000. (Sifu Marlon Ma has some great info on this matter.)The age of this way is the reason for so many styles and so much dept to the lineages. Also it explains the scope of PM intent.

  Thanx, Sifu Othal Thomas