I just wanted to hear other peoples opinion on a matter. I know a person who has been training in southern mantis and choy lee fut and wants to start up a class. The thing is he wants to teach both together instead of seperated. Can that even be done with so many differences between the arts? I am happy training where I am at, so I have no interest in training with this guy, but I was just curious if this would even be possible. I have known him for a couple years and I tried talking him into maybe teaching it individually, but he thinks he can do it.
no.
If you are smart, experienced, and flexible minded, then perhaps you can learn one, and then the other, but not together-especially if he’s attempting to teach beginners.
The two systems are based on completely different structures, methodologies, power generation, etc.
You will end up with niether.
You may have a collection of forms and a handfull of exercises, but you will only be kidding yourself if you think that you will gain any true understanding of either art in this manner.
I totally agree. I will just have to change his mind for him. Challenge match. LOL.
I would suggest CLF and after some time ( years perhaps) then go to SPM.
The CLF will build up a strong foundation and power core that, after slight modification, will lend itself nicely to SPM.
Yeah he did learn them individually, so I have no idea how he thinks he can teach them that way.
in my opinion CLF and Wing Chun are very complimentary to each other
Not sure about those styles, but many styles can be trained simultaneously so long as the person has the time and patience to do so.
personally speaking, I believe Hung-Gar or even moreso, Hop-Ga / Tibetan White Crane make good foundational training for SPM. Hung-Gar due to the short hand techniques found in Fu Hok Seurng Ying Kuen and Ng Ying Kuen, and TWC due to its footwork and body movement. Both systems develop long chain power generation, which enables the short power to develop later.
[QUOTE=hskwarrior;988647]in my opinion CLF and Wing Chun are very complimentary to each other[/QUOTE]
Is SPM short for Wing Chun?
Waaay too much stuff. Even a single of those systems has so many superfluous techniques and unnatural body postures (probably more so in SPM though) in them that it takes forever just to get down basic body mechanics and posture. And people studying a single of these arts intensively often dont have good reactions installed even after years of study, let alone studying both…
Train in both and not only will the students have too much material to make heads or tails of, but their mind/body will become confused as to what to use and when, even before stress has been applied to a drill or sparring.
Is SPM short for Wing Chun?
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i thought it stood for Southern Praying Mantis
[QUOTE=PlumDragon;988875]Waaay too much stuff. Even a single of those systems has so many superfluous techniques and unnatural body postures (probably more so in SPM though) in them that it takes forever just to get down basic body mechanics and posture. And people studying a single of these arts intensively often dont have good reactions installed even after years of study, let alone studying both…
Train in both and not only will the students have too much material to make heads or tails of, but their mind/body will become confused as to what to use and when, even before stress has been applied to a drill or sparring.[/QUOTE]
what about a street fighter who uses steroids to the point where his physique is at his genetic peak?.. How hard would it be to adapt new forms of twisting the muscles. most kung fu guys are in ****ty shape to begin with so they take up kung fu for fitness…I know an Irish jailhouse boxer who fights for money with bikers that likes to bite while he jabs I don’t think it would take more than three years for him to learn to fight with CLF. I’m not trying to present an argument only my dismay at the lame level of quality chinese martial instructionpresented to the masses. lol
6 months
Waaay too much stuff. Even a single of those systems has so many superfluous techniques and unnatural body postures (probably more so in SPM though) in them that it takes forever just to get down basic body mechanics and posture.
Not true at least in Choy Lay Fut
If you train CLF properly with function in mind you should be pretty decent within 6 months. Train basic techniques solo, then with a partner in static drills, then semi free sparring then free sparring. Though the forms are nice and give you ideas to expand upon later they aren’t a nessecity for gaining a basic level of proficiency.
If you don’t follow a similar formula you could practice your whole life and never learn to defend yourself
BTW, what is the point of learning a system that takes almost your whole life to be able to execute basic body mechanics?
[QUOTE=PlumDragon;988875]Waaay too much stuff. Even a single of those systems has so many superfluous techniques and unnatural body postures (probably more so in SPM though) in them that it takes forever just to get down basic body mechanics and posture. And people studying a single of these arts intensively often dont have good reactions installed even after years of study, let alone studying both…
Train in both and not only will the students have too much material to make heads or tails of, but their mind/body will become confused as to what to use and when, even before stress has been applied to a drill or sparring.[/QUOTE]
I am curious to know what in particular you feel are superflous techniques in SPM?
(although I do agree with your second statemnt.)
styles are taught together all the time and have even been blended together before to create new styles: hung fut, choyleefut, northern mantis, h*ll tony leung in the UK created steel wire southern mantis by combining chow gar and hung gar so it can be done and has been done, i suppose the question is does the instructor have the ability to combine the arts and teach them. If he does more power to him
[QUOTE=Frost;989337]styles are taught together all the time and have even been blended together before to create new styles: hung fut, choyleefut, northern mantis, h*ll tony leung in the UK created steel wire southern mantis by combining chow gar and hung gar so it can be done and has been done, i suppose the question is does the instructor have the ability to combine the arts and teach them. If he does more power to him[/QUOTE]
i agree!
GASP!:eek:
[QUOTE=TenTigers;989335]I am curious to know what in particular you feel are superflous techniques in SPM? (although I do agree with your second statemnt.)[/QUOTE]Hi TenTigers,
So as to respect the wishes of those who taught me, please feel free to PM or email me (pd@plumdragon.org) and I would be happy to have a discussion with you off-forum.
[QUOTE=PlumDragon;989494]Hi TenTigers,
So as to respect the wishes of those who taught me, please feel free to PM or email me (pd@plumdragon.org) and I would be happy to have a discussion with you off-forum.[/QUOTE]
No offense but if you didn’t wanna discuss it in a public forum, why bring it up in a public forum?
Fair question; perhaps I shouldnt have brought it up…
I suppose I wanted to weigh in and offer my opinion on the matter; if someone had asked me for a more detailed explanation of why I dont think the systems should be taught contingently, I would have probably just answered, as that was the topic of the thread. The question about superfluous “techniques” is a topic of a different nature and something Id be surprised if any exponent would come out and outline in any detail.
[QUOTE=TenTigers;988572]no.
If you are smart, experienced, and flexible minded, then perhaps you can learn one, and then the other, but not together-especially if he’s attempting to teach beginners.
The two systems are based on completely different structures, methodologies, power generation, etc.
You will end up with niether.
You may have a collection of forms and a handfull of exercises, but you will only be kidding yourself if you think that you will gain any true understanding of either art in this manner.[/QUOTE]
I must disagree with you on this point.
The internal people like to tighten their butts and tuck their tailbones under thereby straightening the lordodic curve of their lumbar spine. This is their “secret” to being rooted and powerful. Many styles have adopted this structure including some southern mantis groups. This so called “special” structure can adapted to any style. If the lumbar spine is straight then no force can be dissipated by the person bending his back when hitting for example. Whether or not this is healthy is questionable. That takes care of the power generation aspect.
The methodologies of these two styles may LOOK different superficially. One style trains with their arms connected already(spm) while the other starts at a distance(clf). This goes back to my argument that styles are fake. In sparring no one would be able to “see” this so called difference. They’d see two people hitting each other. It may be true that clf has more and bigger swinging motions and spm has smaller more forward motions. I must say that clf lends itself to free sparring better than spm. SPM gets messy with all the little circles and traps.
I am no expert on these two styles but I do feel that my opinion on styles only existing superficially to have some weight. If I am completely off about spm then please put up a clip of people free sparring from a distance “looking” like spm.