TCM, MD, L.A.C Sandal!

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Traditional Chinese Medicine
21

Re: Chinese med education

Originally posted by Pilgrim
Chinese medicine is fantastic medicine, with lots of advantages over allopathic medicine. The Wall Street Journal had a large article discussing the fact that herbal decoctions have had the best success treating and in prevention of SARS.

Since you obviously never read the article, I’ll save everyone else the trouble of searching for it and post a link to the copyright violation:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Wall+Street+Journal+SARS+herbal&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=apvlbvka70kd9sj9g246d56b38m28viv3h%404ax.com&rnum=1

The article was a nicety, but its content barely supports its own headline much less your assertion “herbal decoctions have had the best success treating and in prevention [sic] of SARS.”

22

SARS statement is absolutely ludicrious,safe as far as proof need not be shown.
It is very amusing considering that there is no basis for infectious/viral diseases down there.

Key points;
"Thus far, there is no clinical evidence that
cow urine extract, pounded almonds or ginger do any good against
stubborn viruses like the one that causes SARS. But as far as anyone
can tell, such treatments don’t hurt either. "
Did not necessarily surprise.“Won´t hurt” is not too promising considering what we are talking about here.
Maybe urine therapy could offer some answers. :wink:

“I do believe some formulas might work in terms of relieving the
symptoms and may even enhance the body’s defense system,” says Cheng
Yung-chi, a professor of pharmacology at Yale University School of
Medicine. “As far as their direct antiviral properties are concerned,
that is questionable. But as long as they are handled with care, they
should be tried.”
Based on belief,this idea is.
I wonder how this statement of “enchance the body´s defense system” will be backed up? Such scientific sounding statements are not too rare among quackery but even more unfounded.

“Doctors say such medicines haven’t been used in Hong
Kong hospitals since before World War II, when they were banned by the
occupying Japanese as unscientific.”
:slight_smile:

“But many Chinese are more apt to listen to their grandmothers than
they are to health officials or scientists in white coats.”
This is very sad.
Reminds me how so many Chinese women were recently rushing to hospitals to get their children delivered (even if it requires surgery) before astrologically “bad” year.

The most brutal form of reality check might be that of SARS being able to succesfully spread into rural regions where health care is probably wanting.Of course such a nightmare is not desirable in any respect.

I shall be adding that while we are likely to be unaware of cow urine´s possible therapeutic value,it does not necessary help that we cannot say how safe it is to combine it with conventional medication.

Thanks for posting the article (and for the replies too)

23

Work or Doesn’t Work?!?!?!!?

I didn’t waste my time reading all the post, just kinda skimmed through, but I noticed a buzz word which always seems to come up when referring to alternative medicine and that is ‘placebo’. I have asked this question before somewhere on this forum before with no response from anyone.

If the placebo affect is to be the reason that alternative medicine works, then why do so many people still get sick when they get a flu shot, why do so many people still die when they are being treated for cancer by Western medicine? What happened to the placebo affect when treated by Western medicine? I would think if the placebo affect is so strong it would happen in both instances. I think this term is thrown around way to often to describe something others don’t understand. Just my .02 cents.

:wink:

24

Back to the topic

To get back on topic of the thread, I recall a time when My TCM doctor was doing an alternative medicine show, where everyone had booths set up and you could get advice and treatments for free or a minimal fee. My TCM doctor (Dr. Chow) was set up next to an M.D. who also did acupucture (just a few hours of training), and had tried to pull people out of Dr. Chow’s line and when the patient asked why she should go to her (the M.D.'s) booth, her response was ‘because I am a doctor’.

To make a long story short, she wasn’t able to help relieve this lady of her pain. Dr. Chow went over and used what he calls wrist and ankle acupuncture and the pain disappeared within a few minutes. The M.D. couldn’t believe it and actually had him come and give a speech on acupunture to her and her M.D. friends.

25

"If the placebo affect is to be the reason that alternative medicine works, then why do so many people still get sick when they get a flu shot, why do so many people still die when they are being treated for cancer by Western medicine? What happened to the placebo affect when treated by Western medicine? I would think if the placebo affect is so strong it would happen in both instances. I think this term is thrown around way to often to describe something others don’t understand. Just my .02 cents. "
At first,alternative medicine does not work that much as we know.Placebo only goes so far.
Is it that we do not understand or are we expected to accept logical fallacies? (Introduction to logical fallacies http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/ )
What can occam´s razor tell us? (introducing OR http://www.skepdic.com/occam.html )
Your question assumes that so and so many get sick or die even though they get treatment,it´s true.It is also rather obvious that not always can you heal someone (did not strike too hard I´d think) One can only guess what the situation would be without those treatments,you must be aware of all the improvements they have brought.
It is completely useless to argue about such a thing,it is better to realize the facts.

"To get back on topic of the thread, I recall a time when My TCM doctor was doing an alternative medicine show, where everyone had booths set up and you could get advice and treatments for free or a minimal fee. My TCM doctor (Dr. Chow) was set up next to an M.D. who also did acupucture (just a few hours of training), and had tried to pull people out of Dr. Chow’s line and when the patient asked why she should go to her (the M.D.'s) booth, her response was ‘because I am a doctor’.

To make a long story short, she wasn’t able to help relieve this lady of her pain. Dr. Chow went over and used what he calls wrist and ankle acupuncture and the pain disappeared within a few minutes. The M.D. couldn’t believe it and actually had him come and give a speech on acupunture to her and her M.D. friends."

Anecdote…
It does not really manage to support an argument or two.

Non-falsifiable being.I once had a pet duck,my pet duck got sick and I took him to a vet.My pet duck became healthy and happy.
One day a snake-oil salesman approached him and my duck agressively burst out saying “QUACK!” “QUACK!” “QUACK!”.

26

Former

You and your great source of websites.

skeptics.com
quakery.com

hehe

27

Doing the work for you.

In my recent post,I used two sources to make my point (which neither of,was one of those)
However,I have used many sites as one can notice.

Those websites seem to be more yours than mine.
I do not recall having used quakery.com (nor would it help)
Neither do I think I have used skeptics.com

28

Re: Work or Doesn’t Work?!?!?!!?

Originally posted by azwingchun

If the placebo affect is to be the reason that alternative medicine works, then why do so many people still get sick when they get a flu shot, why do so many people still die when they are being treated for cancer by Western medicine? What happened to the placebo affect when treated by Western medicine? I would think if the placebo affect is so strong it would happen in both instances.

In the past, you’ve probably never received a response because the question is answerable.

In some sort of order:

  1. why do some people get sick after they’ve gotten a flu shot?

Well, I suppose what you really meant to ask is: why do some people get the flu following a flu shot?

Most probable answer: a vaccine is formulated for common variations of the virus causing the flu (is this regional?). If you’re exposed to another mutation of the virus, it offers little or no protection. Likewise, I’d expect people with compromised immune systems may still get the flu even with a shot. However, they often don’t get as sick as they would otherwise and recover more quickly.

I don’t have access to medline, but I suspect if you asked FC some detailed questions he’d post some excerpts from immunology research for you.

  1. why do people still die when being treated for cancer with Western medicine?

Ummm, because cancer treatment isn’t a 100% thing. Disingenuous question since any oncologist will explain survival rates in probabilistic terms. Thus, some cancers have poor long-term survival rates (it’s my understanding stomach cancer’s in this category) while others have much better long-term survival rates.

  1. What happens to the placebo effect when treated with western medicine?

Ummm, it’s still there and research on efficacy must control for its effect. This is why the methodology of research is so important and best practice is a double-blind studies that attempt to remove the patient and caregiver’s biases from the “efficacy equation.”

NOTE: I concede double-blind studies might not be appropriate in all areas. However, there are other methodologies that help account for the placebo effect as well.

29

fragbot

I apologize that you didn’t see what I was getting at. My statements were meant and staed as sarcasm. my point was that when people are healed by alternative medicine people always say that it must of or is the placebo affect. So with that said, why doesn’t the placebo affect work with such things that reallt supposedly work…such as the flu shot.

Don’t get me wrong, I completely understand where you are coming from when speaking of various flu strains and people who die from cancer. This isn’t or wasn’t my point, my point is why does the placebo affect work much better with alternative medicine than with Western medicine? I am not speaking for all alternative medicine, by the way not all is good, I do realize this. Not to mention the many practitioners out there selling the so-called snake oil. But, with the few TCM doctors that I have had the pleasure to be around, their success rates are amazing. Not to mention many of these patients came to them as a last resort after Western medicine couldn’t help. :wink:

30

Re: fragbot

Originally posted by azwingchun I apologize that you didn’t see what I was getting at. My statements were meant and staed as sarcasm. my point was that when people are healed by alternative medicine people always say that it must of or is the placebo affect. So with that said, why doesn’t the placebo affect work with such things that reallt supposedly work…such as the flu shot.

This isn’t or wasn’t my point, my point is why does the placebo affect work much better with alternative medicine than with Western medicine?

Conceptually, the point you are arguing is absurd. Whether we’re talking about TCM or Western medicine, the placebo effect is important. I’ve never seen a single person argue it’s more “effective” for TCM. Instead, it’s a simple realization that anecdotes of “it worked for me” are an awful tool for judging something’s effectiveness. If your bias is to see it work, it will. Likewise, if the provider can influence you, many people will believe it worked. Hence the need for well-designed research to show it’s effectiveness.

I am not speaking for all alternative medicine, by the way not all is good, I do realize this. Not to mention the many practitioners out there selling the so-called snake oil. But, with the few TCM doctors that I have had the pleasure to be around, their success rates are amazing. Not to mention many of these patients came to them as a last resort after Western medicine couldn’t help. :wink:

In my case, it’s not a matter of snake-oil or not. It’s the what-should-be trivial ability to make informed health care decisions. Decisions based on something approximating well-done research.

Look at this debate, much of the response is in the “it worked for me” camp. On a bulletin board focused on Chinese culture, there will be many people who self-select for bias towards TCM for various reasons. Instead of viewing the situation objectively and critically, I’d posit they’re more likely than the population as a whole to see what they want to see–the genius of ancient Chinese wisdom*. Thus, they’ll either “will” the malady away (AKA the power of belief or the placebo effect) or falsely attribute the source of their relief (eg, I took po chai pills and my stomach feels better. They must work.; ummm, maybe your stomach was just getting better anyway?)

Earlier in this thread, I posted a link to an article on (I think) an acupuncture site somewhere. If possible, read the article, paying close attention to the hierarchy of evidence for efficacy (or something like that). If you do this, do the following gedanken experiment:

if the labels on the hierarchies were inadvertently switched, what would your confidence level be in Western medicine?

*anyone remember the “we need more Calgon” commercials? Pure comedic genius.

31

Adds

“So with that said, why doesn’t the placebo affect work with such things that reallt supposedly work…such as the flu shot.”
Basically,such a treatment (injection,we have here as a prime example) is,and at the very least should be cabable of working beyond mere wish of it (thus the injection)
Just like a drug,whether you want it or not,active chemicals will most likely enter your bloodstream.
These can hardly be compared for real.
And as previously said and further explained by fragbot,vaccine (as an exam.) lurks there for a reason.

"my point is why does the placebo affect work much better with alternative medicine than with Western medicine? "
Placebo certainly affects western medicine,such things as health care provider´s relationship to patient and related things can make a difference (talk about psychosomatic effects)
A bit of a slow description on placebo effect http://www.skepdic.com/placebo.html
The thing is,you cannot seriously trust that any faith in the world will remove an underlying pathology.
I´m not all too confident if I understand you right,but if you´re wondering why placebo effect pops up so often when dealing with alternative medicine,it is due to the fact that it may very well be it´s functioning mechanism.Such an effect is probably cabable of bringing some temporary pain relief (as often suggested in this context) while the disease/condition may take it´s natural course,and finally a hokey treatment may work trough counter-irritation and related effect.
These being brought down,this would indicate that the mechanism is something different than claimed to be.

32

Brother (Former Castelva),

After suffering over 10 years of depression that basically ruined my life, I am finally feeling what it is like to be alive again after
two years of spotty zhan zhuang and 5 months of herb therapy. I was even able to quit a 10 year smoking habit :wink: No thanks to all of the psychologists/psychiatrists that I had seen and paid tons of money to. The herbs made a huge difference. Helped clear up all sorts of ills I had, blood sugar problems, constant fatigue, etc.

My TCM doctor is 8th generation and was also trained in Western biomedical science. He is no witchdoctor.

Best,
LU

33

Bro. LU

“After suffering over 10 years of depression that basically ruined my life, I am finally feeling what it is like to be alive again after
two years of spotty zhan zhuang and 5 months of herb therapy. I was even able to quit a 10 year smoking habit No thanks to all of the psychologists/psychiatrists that I had seen and paid tons of money to. The herbs made a huge difference. Helped clear up all sorts of ills I had, blood sugar problems, constant fatigue, etc.”

At first,I´m sincerely glad to hear that you have survived depression.I realize it is important to get yourself going,become active to fight it by whatever your tools are.I´m battling depression on daily basis myself (which you were might very well have been aware of)
That being said,I mean no offense when I say that I´m again getting “force fed” with another appealing anecdote (considering the context)
:slight_smile:

Thanks for posting.

Best wishes to you too.

34

Hey Former,

When you want to post and use the previous person’s commnets, you might want to click on the “QUOTE” which is next to the FONT, when you post

That way it will make everything easier to read.

35

“That being said,I mean no offense when I say that I´m again getting “force fed” with another appealing anecdote (considering the context)”

You don’t have to eat if you don’t want to, but I wanted you to be aware that the dish is out there. I wish someone had suggested these things to me when I was younger so I didn’t have to waste so much of my youth searching for real healing.

Take it easy.

36

"When you want to post and use the previous person’s commnets, you might want to click on the “QUOTE” which is next to the FONT, when you post

That way it will make everything easier to read."

Sorry.I kinda prefer it this way,out of learned habit.

"You don’t have to eat if you don’t want to, but I wanted you to be aware that the dish is out there. I wish someone had suggested these things to me when I was younger so I didn’t have to waste so much of my youth searching for real healing.

Take it easy."

I see. :slight_smile:
I´ll try taking it easy.

37

"You don’t have to eat if you don’t want to, but I wanted you to be aware that the dish is out there. I wish someone had suggested these things to me when I was younger so I didn’t have to waste so much of my youth searching for real healing.

Doesnt’ this look nice? hello? Use the “QUOTE” system!

38

Former,

By your postings, I see why you are so depressed. You have bought into the AMA’s BS…

Please try to keep an open mind. Here’s another viewpoint:

In 1997, experts from various fields (including MD’s, PhD’s, and acupuncturists) reviewed the evidence and made what was called the National Institute of Health Consensus Statement on Acupuncture. It reads:

“There is clear evidence that needle acupuncture is efficacious for adult postoperative and chemotherapy nausea and vomiting and probably for the nausea of pregnancy. Much of the evidence is on various pain problems. There is evidence of efficacy for postoperative dental pain. There are reasonalbe studies (although sometimes only single studies) showing relief of pain with acupuncture on diverse pain conditions such as menstrual cramps, tennis elbow, and fibromyalgia. This suggests that acupuncture may have a more general effect on pain. However, there are also studies that do not find efficacy for acupuncture in pain”.

Also, please note the RCT’s are about 50 years old, while TCM is 4500 years old, and there has only been adequate funding sources for alternative medicine research in the last 4 or 5 years.

Note as well-why would some studies report acupuncture not having efficacy for pain control? I suggest that perhaps the wrong points were selected / the acupuncturists were not good (not all are!). It’s just like psychology-there are behaviorists, Freudians, etc. Not every branch of psychology is effective in certain situations. Does that mean psychology doesn’t work? I would like to see what modalities were used in all of the studies, including the study designs themselves.

I certainly don’t think acupuncture is a cure-all, but it can help with many conditions. I have a degree in Psychology and know all about placebo effect, etc. Do you know that ALL medicine (including pharmocologal) is 30% placebo? In fact, a current study done at Harvard medical (and published everywhere-including the AARP and other “popular” magazines) proved that orthoscopic knee surgery had the same success rate as placebo surgery! Do those skeptic websites also attack Western medicine? How about the considerable amount of deaths each year caused by “mistakes” at hospitals and perscription drug interactions? Do you know that the statistics show that you have a greater chance of dying in a hospital due to a mistake than by dying in a car accident? How many deaths are caused each year by acupuncture?

Do you know that the World Health Organization has publically endorsed acupuncture for a laundry list of conditions? Are they deluded quacks as well?

My perspective is that the MD’s fear acupuncture because of one thing…money. I would recommend that you do some serious research into the history of medicine in America, but you are depresed enough already…

On a personal note, have you sought out any treatment for your depression? There are many newer Rx’s that are great for it, and they don’t have as many side effects as the old ones. I’m not knocking Western medicine, I encourage you to get some help. Why continue to suffer? (But I believe that TCM can help as well).

And finally, I have been involved in clinical trials (in psychology) and I know how statistics (which are supposedly validators of scientific efficacy) can be skewed to support or disprove ones position. I’ve done it myself, therefore, I don’t believe every study I read. What I do believe is what I see with my own eyes. If I know someone who gets relief from acupuncture (and I know many)and they tell me so, I believe it. When they say that they went to every MD and Chriopractor under the sun with no help, then Joe Acupuncturist helped, I believe it. Is it placebo? If it helps, who cares? These are real people with real feelings of pain. If acupuncture makes it go away, then it’s real to me.

Take care.

Jack

39

Analysis of the case.

“By your postings, I see why you are so depressed. You have bought into the AMA’s BS…”
Possible ad hominem.

“There is clear evidence that needle acupuncture is efficacious for adult postoperative and chemotherapy nausea and vomiting and probably for the nausea of pregnancy. Much of the evidence is on various pain problems. There is evidence of efficacy for postoperative dental pain. There are reasonalbe studies (although sometimes only single studies) showing relief of pain with acupuncture on diverse pain conditions such as menstrual cramps, tennis elbow, and fibromyalgia. This suggests that acupuncture may have a more general effect on pain. However, there are also studies that do not find efficacy for acupuncture in pain”."

This study finds little help from acupuncture for tennis elbow;
http://www.update-software.com/abstracts/ab003527.htm

Acupuncture listed as unproven in terms of treating fibromyalgia;
http://www.systoc.com/CMEcourses/wolk/tsld056.htm

Data like this would seem to contradict these claims.

“Also, please note the RCT’s are about 50 years old, while TCM is 4500 years old, and there has only been adequate funding sources for alternative medicine research in the last 4 or 5 years.”
I have seen the argument to antiquity before.

"Do you know that the World Health Organization has publically endorsed acupuncture for a laundry list of conditions? Are they deluded quacks as well? "

Hard to say since I have not looked at that so much yet.
Unfortunately regulated does not mean valid.
Someone pointed out that tcm had been accepted in Canada as an example,but not the whole country agrees;
http://www.crhp.net/crhp.htm

“Note as well-why would some studies report acupuncture not having efficacy for pain control? I suggest that perhaps the wrong points were selected / the acupuncturists were not good (not all are!). It’s just like psychology-there are behaviorists, Freudians, etc. Not every branch of psychology is effective in certain situations. Does that mean psychology doesn’t work? I would like to see what modalities were used in all of the studies, including the study designs themselves.”

Since you are that interested,you might want to be skeptical of those certain positive studies of few and far between.
It is reported that they are often poorly constructed.
When it comes to psychology btw,I prefer evolutionary psychology over many others but that´s another issue.
Is not it a bit odd to suggest that it was just bad practitioners or wrong points? Unlike those on opposing side,I have released a decent amount of material that talks for ineffective tcm/acupuncture,along with other concerning material.
In some cases,right points do give same results that wrong ones do,which can be that of none.
It is interesting to me that when it comes to positive trials,it can often be said that it helped this or this pain for a while but there are many negative trials.This would suggest that unlike fancy meridians and forces to be triggered (which obviously choose,according to studies,“when to go to work” so to speak)
it works trough placebo and counter-irritation (like a mosquito bite that you want to scratch,it won´t leave but it releases endorphins etc. and you feel it helped)

“I certainly don’t think acupuncture is a cure-all, but it can help with many conditions. I have a degree in Psychology and know all about placebo effect, etc. Do you know that ALL medicine (including pharmocologal) is 30% placebo? In fact, a current study done at Harvard medical (and published everywhere-including the AARP and other “popular” magazines) proved that orthoscopic knee surgery had the same success rate as placebo surgery! Do those skeptic websites also attack Western medicine? How about the considerable amount of deaths each year caused by “mistakes” at hospitals and perscription drug interactions? Do you know that the statistics show that you have a greater chance of dying in a hospital due to a mistake than by dying in a car accident? How many deaths are caused each year by acupuncture?”

-I did not know pharmacological medicine is 30% placebo.Would you like to show me where I could check this out if possible?
-Skeptic sites do not attack western medicine as far as I know but rather antiscientific medicine which has not been proven beyond reasonable doubt.
-This medicine/death argument I have dealt with a couple of times already in total.But where do you go after a car accident if morgue is not your next stop? Where do you get treated at?
I know I have been quite close to possible death by suffocation but I am still typing,nobody is to ask why.
-All I know is acupuncture has caused a few deaths,among other complications.Herbs are known to have caused various problems and fatalities.
These I have shown earlier.
You can go to www.acupuncture911.com for some insight.
It is obvious that acupuncture or related therapy won´t directly cause as much undesired damage as real medicine may have caused.
What you should have thought about by now is that when a man´s best choise used to be acupuncture or a prayer,deaths and suffering from causes that we can now avoid or defeat much have been great.
A tiny needle on your skin or a remedy diluted into tap water,or a leaf may not represent great danger but neither will hoping that the condition goes away by itself.What both of these have in common is the fact that one may very well pass away on his/her own.
The prescription drug that you are given may&will cause side-effects and as you put it can be dangerous but the fact that there are side-effects serves to confirm the fact that it is potent enough to work beyond mere hope for the better.

My favourite take on “complementary” medicine I have witnessed so far (if it can ever be considered such) is darwinian medicine,I do not know what comes out of this method.

“On a personal note, have you sought out any treatment for your depression? There are many newer Rx’s that are great for it, and they don’t have as many side effects as the old ones. I’m not knocking Western medicine, I encourage you to get some help. Why continue to suffer? (But I believe that TCM can help as well).”
Technically I have,yes.
I´m yet to see a shred of evidence that tcm can help,I´ve seen some evidence that indicates it may not help.
Basically,psychiatry itself is still young but no more would I go looking for help from a branch of medicine which likes to link your intestines and related organs to your emotions (a fact)

"And finally, I have been involved in clinical trials (in psychology) and I know how statistics (which are supposedly validators of scientific efficacy) can be skewed to support or disprove ones position. I’ve done it myself, therefore, I don’t believe every study I read. What I do believe is what I see with my own eyes. If I know someone who gets relief from acupuncture (and I know many)and they tell me so, I believe it. When they say that they went to every MD and Chriopractor under the sun with no help, then Joe Acupuncturist helped, I believe it. Is it placebo? If it helps, who cares? These are real people with real feelings of pain. If acupuncture makes it go away, then it’s real to me.
"

Very little can I add to this.I have been given anecdotes for a time or two.
BTW,I would not necessarily go to a chiropractor for help.Recent studies link them to stroke risk and some of their methods and concepts are quackery.

40

Former,

Thanks for the quick reply. I can see that you will be a tough one to convince. I went to the acupuncture911 site. Boy do they hate acupuncture! My question is this-who exactly sponsors this site. You like to quote info from them, but why do you trust them so much? Lets use REAL medical sites as the standard. How about JAMA (The Journal of the American Medical Association)? Every medical doctor in the US lives by and trusts the info presented in JAMA. Do a search in JAMA for acupuncture and see what you find. I already have, and there are plenty of respected, peer-reviewed medical studies proving the efficacy of acupuncture. If you can find some reason that JAMA would be a part of the acupuncture conspiracy, go to Medline or to the National Library of Medicine, and do searches there. The point is that in the true medical journals, scientific evidence is given precedence over clinical anecdotal experience (or sensationalistic quackery claims). The sites that you quote from are so incredibly biased, please just go to the true medical websites. If you do and still aren’t convinced, then I’ll leave you to your psychosis…

Acupuncture911 looks to be based out of Canada. I cannot speak for Canada, but in the US, acupuncture is indeed regulated. The acupuncturists are required to use single-use disposable needles or must autoclave the needles if they are going to reuse them, as per OSHA standards. In reality, 99.9% of acupuncturists here use the single use disposable type, they are so cheap and freely accessable; it’s a hassle to have to autoclave. The risk of contamination is basically null. (All insertion sites are cleaned prior to insertion to reduce the risk of any pathogen on the surface being carried inside the body by the needle.)

Acupuncture911 seems to have a major devotion to inspire fear in alternative medicine-they simply try to point out “horror stories” and knock the account of Rosenthols China experiences. I don’t care about Rosenthols account of what he feels he saw in China in 1971- Give me the science-based Journal of the American Medical Association anyday.

Regarding my stats on the placebo effect-how about visiting the above referenced sites and find out for yourself? Something tells me that you won’t believe me anyway.

Let me leave you with this, I am on a board of the largest medical hospital in my area. This grants me access to information that most do not have access to. I feel that Western (allopathic) medicine has it’s merits as well as drawbacks, as do all types of medicine. I can and do use Western Medicine for SOME situations, I also use TCM as well. The future is in the integration of both.

Jack