I’ve been reading two books simultaneously, one is called simply “The Placebo Effect.” The other is called “The Yellow Emperor’s Classic on Internal Medicine.” Both allude to the fact that TCM can only help prevent or relieve the some the symptoms of disease not cure it. Bringing into question its actual mechanism. Is it possible that it is simply the placebo effect at work?
Fu-Pow
“Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter.”
i find it odd that people always talk about SIMPLY or MERELY placebo effect.
placebo itself can be a powerful healing tool, and is underresearched and often ignored.
having said that, i’m personally pretty confident that there’s more to TCM than placebo
___________________________________________________________________________ “I’m just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!”
Alot of research is being conducted in to TCM at the moment (as well as in the past few years) and due to the volume of TCM such a blanket question is not really worthwhile. As far as I know, some medical practices and medicines have been validated whereas research into other materials/ingredients has shed new light on applications unthought of. In the former group, I have seen that liqourice root has proven to have anti-inflammaotry actions and I believe this is a common ingredient in Dit Da Jow. I think one of the good things about the western scientific approach to validating TCM is that it may eventaully lead to a TCM codex/pharmacopea if one doesn’t already exist.
I agree with Fish - there is a lot to be said about the Placebo Effect. I also agree that there is more to TCM than the Placebo Effect. I doubt that a system of medicine and treatment would have lasted so long on the Placebo Effect.
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What we do in life echoes in Eternity
Umm that is a pretty funny question but you should look at the facts: TCM has been used in terms of acupuncture as an anesthetic. That means in laymens terms, if it were a placebo effect, it would have to be an amazingly powerful one considering thousands of people have undergone surgeries using only acupuncture as the primary source of pain numbing. It seems to have been kept around up until now.
Nexus
<font size=“1”>“Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It’s the <font color=“blue”>‘just’</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color=“blue”>ego</font> go berserk.” - Hans Taeger</font>
One interesting fact that is that placebo effects statistically has a success rate of ABOUT 30%. TCM has a higher success rate than that. On mitigating withdrawl sypmtoms from drug addiction it has about 70-80% success rate.
For physical rehabilitation one study (sorry, forgot the univ. that conducted the study) shows a higher success rate than that of physical therapy alone; more than 75%.
In an ancient medical text titled “Shang Hun Lun” Zhang Zhong Jin, successfully recorded and treated what many scholars believe, what would be called today “Typhoid Fever”, this was about 2,500 yrs ago.
Also, and most IMPORTANT FACT in debunking the “placebo effect” champions, is the fact that acupuncture has been done on ANIMALS, with approximately the same success rate.
70%> is about, the standards for effective treatment for any new drug, therapy, procedure…etc. Coincidentally, it was also the standard in ancient Imperial China, in judging a successful physician from a useless one.
( Alternative Medicine for Dummies; by Dr.Dillard, MD,DC,CAc)
If you thought that the Yellow Eporor’s Classic made TCM out to be the Placebo effect, then unfortunately you may of misunderstood it. It is in fact quite the opposite. And yes, diseases CAN be cured. This in itself sounds like a generalisation, but it depends on situations and the probability of ones own health and the surrounding influencing factors also.
Here’s the direct quote from The Placebo Effect: and Interdisciplinary approach, edited by Anne Harrison.
“Acupuncture , the most extensively used treatment in China for 2500 years, is still in use, with incursions into Western countries. However, acupuncture has probably been more harmful than helpful, since is likely that unsterilized needles were responsible for homologous serum jaundice, which was endemic in China for centuries. Although Veith (1972) concludes that “the maintenance of these cumbersome and probably painful methods of treatment must indicate that they possess healing power,” the Yellow Emperor inadvertently proposed a better explanation. “The ancient sages did not treat those who were already ill,” only “those who were not ill.” His advice provides a primer for placebo effects: treat only patients who are not seriously ill, likely to improve spontaneously, and prone to benefit from nonspecific placebo or no treatment.”
Fu-Pow
“Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter.”
I don’t see “terminally” ill in my quote anywhere.
The fact is that while acupuncture is helpful with relieving pain (a neurological phenomena) it has yet to show that it has any real physical effect. And we lack a scientific mechanism for explaining its effects other than that of the placebo effect. The placebo effect itself is a mysterious phenomena, but we do know that like acupuncture it is capable of relieving pain.
Fu-Pow
“Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter.”
the AMA seems convinced enough to accept acupuncture as a valid form of treatment.
regardless of the yellow emperor quote (which i suspect may be taken out of context, but i’m not sure) modern acupuncture has helped many people with a variety of illnesses…empirical evidence this may be, but it works.(not with 100% efficacy, but then again, nothing does)
science is great, but i think it’s attained a cult like following ie. those who question “science” (or anybody in a white coat) are shouted down and their viewpoint not even considered.it reminds me of witches being burned at the stake.
why does a “scientific” theoretical speculation carry more weight than empirical evidence?
___________________________________________________________________________ “I’m just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!”
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> it reminds me of witches being burned at the stake.
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Funny you should say that. Because it is because of science and our understanding of the world that people no longer believe in witches. But I didn’t post this do argue about the effectiveness of science. Obviously the scientific method is very powerful.
And I’m not “shouting down” TCM. It has positive effects. But then again so does the placebo effect. The placebo effect is just as “mysterious” as TCM. No one really knows how the placebo works. We might as just well say it operates by some vague mchansism as “chi.” So I’m not saying TCM isn’t “real” I’m just curious if it operates under the same mechanism as the placebo effect, ie a psychosomatic mechanism.
Fu-Pow
“Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter.”
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> The fact is that while acupuncture is helpful with relieving pain (a neurological phenomena) it has yet to show that it has any real physical effect. [/quote]
Fu Pow,
Your information seems somewhat dated. Accupuncture actually causes the release of endorphins. It has also been found that flicking the needles, twisting them or sending a current through them can alter the release of different opiod substances. Low frequency currents release enkephalins whereas high frequency releases dynorphin in the spinal cord. TCM has its sceptics and it is difficult applying the placebo effect as this is often used in western biomedical research because the western approach deals with singular chemical entities for the treatment of illness. TCM is a cocktail of chemicals and it is thus harder to fully understand the body’s interaction with these chemcial cocktails.
I think it is more complicated than that. There are many conflicting views in the scientific community. Many laymen have a view that science should be incorruptable but unfortunately some scientists are not that scientific, follow their own agendas, are confused with technologists or are part of the greater politics of science that is often hijacked by governments or big business. I think many scientists feel that they have trouble getting heard.
Can you point me to any peer reviewed journal article which outlines the information you posted about acupuncture. BTW, I am very little impressed by big words or chemical names, I am a scientist after all.
Fu-Pow
“Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter.”
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>TCM is a cocktail of chemicals and it is thus harder to fully understand the body’s interaction with these chemcial cocktails.
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I might also add that herbs and their extracts are not standardized for potency. Therefore, when using an herbal concoction you really have no idea what you are getting in terms of “active” ingredients, nor the amount. There are a few instances in the history of herbal remedies where they actually have a pharmacological effect (e.g. think of limes combating scurvy) ,but for the most part it has been hit or miss.
Fu-Pow
“Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter.”
