I already created a similar thread at main forums thinking it would be a good place,I was wrong.
I´ll try it out here.
I would like to spark some constructive discussion.
http://www.seanet.com/~vettf/Acuref2.htm
http://www.pulsemed.org/challengingbody.htm#2
??
What are you after? This is about like religion or politics; either you believe it will help you or not. 
I am guesing that for a good dicussion on this, you would have to get into a physicians forum…that is, for a true medical debate.
I doubt you will get one here.
Thanks for the thoughts though.
Best wishes,
~BTL
I see where you are getting at.
Thanks for your long awaited reply though.
You are very welcome. Sorry for the delay, but moding the NPM forum is my main gig here. I don’t make it here much anymore.
Best Wishes,
~BTL
I understand.
Best of wishes.
Okay I’m gonna reply to this post. That first article is clearly written from a western medicine point of view.
I personally have had neck, shoulder and lower back problems. I’ll tell you about my shoulder problem first. WHen doing a shaolin set, I messed up my left shoulder and it would slip in and out of the socket. It’s not as bad as it seems because it didn’t hurt or anything.
I go check out a chiropractor and he helps with it but my shoulder still slipped in and out. He gave me a few excercises to do. Fine.
I went to check out a western MD who works with the S.F. 49ers football tea. He xrays it and asks me if it hurts. I reply NO. He says, “Well in my practice, I’ve never seen anything like this. If it doesnt’ hurt, then I wouldn’t worry about it. If it hurts, then come back to me.”
That was a waste of a few hundred dollars. I go check out this other chiropractor and he says that I have to do excercises or I will have to saw off my arm later on becaue it will go dead.
haha
So then I’m in hong kong and i run into a bonesetter. A bonesetter looks like he does chiropractic, but it’s way different and uses herbs as well. He puts some hot, dark herb mixture on my shoulder and tapes it up for one day. I go home thinking, “What the hell is a patch of herbs gonna do to my shoulder ? How is that supposed to fix it?”
I went back a 2nd time to give him the benefit of the doubt. He took of the herbs and cleaned the area of my shoulder. He took his right hand and put it under my arm pit and did an adjustment or somesort. I didnt hurt and it looked like chirpractic to me. My shoulder stayed in the socket and it was amazing! He told me, “Don’t move it around too much.”
He then put more herb patches on it for a few days to make it heal faster.
Here’s another story…lower back problems. The western concept of bringing relief to lower back is to strengthen the muscles around it by doing excericses and situps. I tried that and it didnt seem like i was getting anywhere. I go to a bonesetter, different one, and he puts the same herb patch on my back. This is after he massages a few pressure points and works on the soft tissue.
And whatevert is in that herb patch is amazing because it works instaly and makes the back straighter. i found great relief, about 80%.
ANywys, talking to my old kung fu teacher he said that chinese medicine is very good because it’s been around for 3,000 years. Western medicine has been here for like 300. The human body has its own healing power and chinese medicine stimulates it so thta the body can heal it self. Stimulating with herbs, patches, needles, tunia, massage. He said that it’s good to see a chinese doctor for sports injuires such as back, neck, stifness , fractures etc.
He also said that it’s good to see a western doctor when you get run over by a car and your lung falls out and you need some transplant. Basically, go see an MD for serious operations.
But many of the times that MD’s recommend surgery is when they cant’ figure out what the hell is wrong, so they want to cut you open. And most of those surgeries for liek knee, neck, back, carpal tunnel don’t even work.
In the end, I believe chinese medicine is awesome and can do very good things. Western medicine has its place but is a few thousand years behind.
Also in western medicine, if you have a cough, cold, headache they will prescribe over the counter pills to you. This “symmetcial treatment” brings relief to the symptom, not the cause.
It will bring relief to your runny nose but not the cause, weak organs or whatever it is. After a few hours, guess what? Y our runny nose or cough comes back.
The chines way of healing it does not occur right away like western pills do. It will probably take a week or so but after that, it’s totally out of your system while taking pills is only temporary.
It is pointless to argue to MD’s about chinese medicine because the approach is entirely different. MD’s will have no clue if you talk about chi and meridians. They are never taught any of these concepts in school.
The only way to prove or argue with MD’s is to prove it. Take a patient wtih a loewr back problem. Let the MD guy to his thing , xray and recommend situps and stretches.
After that, let the chinese doctor go at it for like 3 times and then y ou’ll have your answer. Accunpunture is starting to be accepted on some insurance plans and since its arrival in the 70’s , has done quite well.
I agree that there is use for Chinese medicine.
I do not diss such methods and as supplementary therapies they do have their place.
“It is pointless to argue to MD’s about chinese medicine because the approach is entirely different. MD’s will have no clue if you talk about chi and meridians. They are never taught any of these concepts in school.”
It is indeed pointless to argue.What your educated MD is interested in,like about anyone I would think,is interested in a proper,existent mechanism outside of ancient,cultural beliefs or anything like that.Laying it on the line.
There is nothing wrong with that,thus those who can may step up.
In very ancient of times,things were explained in a manner that the situation and resources allowed (Yeah,there was talk about spirits and all regardless of exact region) Knowledge about the complexity of physiology or even gross human anatomy was questionable.And there is still a lot to search for.
“After that, let the chinese doctor go at it for like 3 times and then y ou’ll have your answer. Accunpunture is starting to be accepted on some insurance plans and since its arrival in the 70’s , has done quite well.”
Yeah.
It is also fortunate that even though China has been struggling with major problems with basic services like this,modern treatment is/has found it´s way and there are a lot of hospitals around these days (of course the treatment may not be very good everywhere) Modern treatment saved numerous lives in the past when it became somewhat available.
“Also in western medicine, if you have a cough, cold, headache they will prescribe over the counter pills to you. This “symmetcial treatment” brings relief to the symptom, not the cause.”
This is more complex.
Things that practitioners of alternative medicine may want to tell you are about “natural” treatment etc. keywords that sound very soothing for ears.
The mechanism can be that of picking up anecdotal information from here and there to the direction of-“there was this guy X who suddenly lost his illness etc…”.Such anecdotes whether true or not,sound good and may be real (it is all a different case whether they have much to do with some medicine,sometimes they may die away by themselves) Even complete placebo can work to a degree because of one´s personal expectations and psychological build-up (I have seen discussion on this and even had some with a decent doc and it confirms the information that “natural” drugs or herbs can cause serious effects and even death,as in certain recorded cases.It could be considered unethical to give such out without knowing their chemical make-up.)
WM is rather interested in the cause,following the recipe of any respectable science.Researches and study are made constantly by people who care.
It is of little use to try to give orders from a position of weakness.It´s first about backing up one´s own behind and then telling those who work hard to keep up and seemingly rule what to do.
No wonder that they are in charge.
“It will bring relief to your runny nose but not the cause, weak organs or whatever it is. After a few hours, guess what? Y our runny nose or cough comes back.”
No doctor can do the work for you.Doctors can cure your disease and tell you how to avoid regaining one.
Massive health promoting campaigns…etc.
Lower back issues can be of various causes (Therefore,it is not recommended to tell what conventional treatment would include without that long,hard training)
Seeing a specialist or otherwise,a reliable person will help with the shoulder.It may need careful treatment if in some cases,as if it becomes a chronic condition.
The MD you saw may not have been the best around,I wonder though that he had at least received timely training.
“But many of the times that MD’s recommend surgery is when they cant’ figure out what the hell is wrong, so they want to cut you open. And most of those surgeries for liek knee, neck, back, carpal tunnel don’t even work.”
Quite a brave statement.
I wonder what we would do without surgery.
“ANywys, talking to my old kung fu teacher he said that chinese medicine is very good because it’s been around for 3,000 years. Western medicine has been here for like 300.”
Longer than 300.
Western medicine also grows constantly,it is the dominant form of it for strong reasons and keeps growing to suit the growing needs.I do have a lot of respect for those involved.
Old does not translate into up-to-date.
“In the end, I believe chinese medicine is awesome and can do very good things. Western medicine has its place but is a few thousand years behind.”
Not to be offensive or anything but that is simply sick.
I´m serious.
Critisizing herbal remedies and folk knowledge. It’s ridiculous. Europe also understands the value of natural remedies. American doctors are not trained in such knowledge, and that ignorance leads to all kinds of problems. Dig deep into the herbal world. It’s a goldmine.
There are drugs in modern medicine that are of natural origin.
Synthetic can be tolerated,or not tolerated…
Same goes for natural.
This is not that much the case of a specific area.
Can they work? Possibly.But to reserve rights for bizarre claims that may mislead,I do not tolerate.
Licensed doctors make outragious claims every day. There are quacks in all professions, the media just likes to focus on certain ones. Considering that in usa the established medical community is believed to the point of insanity, who’s more dangerous?
Yeah.Well I would have to agree with that in a way.
It´s a boiling point of great succes and leading resources,then with the downsides displayed by certain professionals.
I have not consulted a western type doctor (AMA) in over 13 years. I consider it to be detrimental to my health, sanity and wealth.
I didn’t mean to say that surgery is useless. I’m just saying you only need surgery for the extreme measures such as putting in a kidney and things like that.
Many of the small surgeries they do for the neck, carpal tunnel, knee and things don’t work.
[I]
“In the end, I believe chinese medicine is awesome and can do very good things. Western medicine has its place but is a few thousand years behind.”
Not to be offensive or anything but that is simply sick.
I´m serious.[/I]
What do you mean it’s “sick?”
At first,I hope I did not offend you since that was not the case.If I did,I apologize just in case.I won´t be commenting on this issue that much anymore for reasons above but what I meant by that comment is that if I got that right,you are basically putting minority medicine over conventional treatment and saying it is " a few thousands years behind" which is some of the most horrid stuff I´ve heard.
Without it,we would be blowing air into our wounds (Which is,besides those who choose to,the case in underdeveloped regions of earth)
I´m open for decent alternative care but we have to be realistic with this.
On personal level,I might end up studying tcm someday but I know where I´m going to go if I´ll ever be to pursue a career in neurology and so on…
Thanks for replies btw.
Sorry Former castleva, but the 21st century Western physician in America often does NOT share your view.
These professionals have a deep respect for what nonWestern medical practitioners can do. They ought to - it’s in their Western medical school training.
Accupuncture DOES work. In China, they’ve refined it to the point where they can use accupuncture in place of chemically induced anesthesia. I know a few people who’ve undergone that treatment and done really well with it after - people who were skeptical at first but changed their tune after talking to their doctors DURING their surgery.
The doctors who work with my students are impressed at how much Eastern medicine can help them. For example, I’ve been prescribing the use of soybeans for a particular patient of mine. Lo and behold, he had just gone to a conference studying the effects of soybeans on certain disorders. He found out that which the Chinese knew for centuries: that soybeans have a calming effect on the human physiology.
Also, another student was taken completely off his hypertensive medication by his doctor after training with me. The weight loss he experienced by training kung fu helped reduce his weight such that his renal system could function properly. I managed to do in the span of a month what thousands of dollars of renal medications could not.
Like it or not, many (not all) of these seemingly “bizarre” treatments stand up in the most rigid scientific inquiry, even those of double blinding and clinical trials. No amount of skepticism about those methods can change the reality of their efficacy.
In many ways, modern medicine IS a few thousand years behind various forms of alternative therapy - and vice versa. The two methods complement each other.
Hungviakuan,
Thanks for the post. I felt like I was the only one backing up TCM here. And on a site note TCM is not just accupunture, it’s also bonesetting, tuina and chi kung.
Also I remember talking to an accunpunture lady and she said that the hardest thing in school is just throwing away anything that you knew previously about heailng and injuries so that you get how chinese medicine works.
Empty your cup. My point is that western medicine can look at and see the effects of chinese medicine all they want, but they will never get how it works becuase they have been through so much training in western medicine. Unless they are ready to throw away everything that they have learned and re-learn everything from the TCM approach, they will never get how TCM works.
Close but no cigar
Originally posted by cha kuen
[B]It is pointless to argue to MD’s about chinese medicine because the approach is entirely different. MD’s will have no clue if you talk about chi and meridians. They are never taught any of these concepts in school.
The only way to prove or argue with MD’s is to prove it. Take a patient wtih a loewr back problem. Let the MD guy to his thing , xray and recommend situps and stretches.
After that, let the chinese doctor go at it for like 3 times and then y ou’ll have your answer. Accunpunture is starting to be accepted on some insurance plans and since its arrival in the 70’s , has done quite well. [/B]
In my world, you’d simply take an adequately-sized set of patients with reasonably identical symptoms. You’d put them through their treatment without notifying them or the health care worker that they’re being monitored and then compare the results.
Oh well, feel free to stone the heretic now.
Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
Accupuncture DOES work. In China, they’ve refined it to the point where they can use accupuncture in place of chemically induced anesthesia.
Ok, I’ll bite. Out of 100, say, appendectomies in China. How many are performed with acupuncture and how many with a general anesthetic (FWIW, they may even use spinal blocks for something as routine as an appendectomy).
Also, another student was taken completely off his hypertensive medication by his doctor after training with me. The weight loss he experienced by training kung fu helped reduce his weight such that his renal system could function properly. I managed to do in the span of a month what thousands of dollars of renal medications could not.
This is disingenuous since I’d bet there’s not a single GP in the US who wouldn’t push someone who’s overweight and diagnosed with hypertension to exercise.
And in other news, my dentist says I should brush my teeth twice daily.
Like it or not, many (not all) of these seemingly “bizarre” treatments stand up in the most rigid scientific inquiry, even those of double blinding and clinical trials. No amount of skepticism about those methods can change the reality of their efficacy.
When you say many, I’d be curious what you mean by that. In absolute or percentage terms?
I’ve done literature searches on these topics before and things like, say, qigong don’t have therapeutic value beyond that of regular exercise.
I’m one of those people who’s a true believer wannabe. I’d like to see alternative medicine therapies be successful. However, an honest look at the research reveals a scantily-clad emperor.
Contrast this with a procedure I had done 9 months ago. Since it had been recently FDA-approved, I was able to read the entire discussion at the FDA about the treatment’s efficacy. Likewise, I was able to read numerous papers written by physicians performing the procedure. These papers contained information on mortality, morbidity, and success rates. Furthermore, I was able to read studies comparing this treatment with the existing treatment–life-long anti-coagulation–to make an informed decision.
Now, the cynical will say, “but no pharmaceutical company will fund the study.” And I’ll call horses***. Since I take 325mg of aspirin daily, I know for a fact that there have been and continue to be numerous studies on the efficacy of the lowly aspirin. Aspirin is essentially a refined herb.
Overall, there are far too many mountebanks in alternative medicine. Whether they’re chiroquacks or people selling you emu oil, they’re too many that are fraudy, fraud, frauds.