Skeptics on TCM

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Traditional Chinese Medicine
21

In Japan, Chinese herbal medicine are clinically tested and approved by the government and adiministered in hospital and clinic nationwide. There are even used for treatment for AIDS patient if some of them develop sever reaction to conventional ****tail treatment.

As of acupuncture, there is a guy who patented a way to paralyse fish. As you know we consume great amount of fish so to transport fish alive while not taking up so much space was a great way to save the cost so he made lot of money. His company specialise in patenting acupuncture point for different fish.

As far as I know, in the West, one must identify exact chemcial compound which is admininstered to the patient. (correct me if I’m wrong on this.) Often TCM use combination of natural ingredients so it is not so easy to go through the process of clinical testing process. However, if you search research from Japan/Korea/China, clinical testing results for Chinese herbal medicine are published in medical journals. Obviously these journals do not endorse qi/ki theory.

22

If you say there are many quacks in chinese medicine, there are just as many in western medicine and I’ll even go as far to say that some of the non-quacks in MD are just as uneffective as the quacks.

Accpunture is accepted on some insurance programs and there are boards that provide a license to practice it. That alone should tell people that it’s good stuff.

Looking at data and tests won’t help you see what chinese medicine is or does. Again, that’s your idea of healing which will set you back if you went to a TCM school to learn.

23

Originally posted by cha kuen
If you say there are many quacks in chinese medicine, there are just as many in western medicine and I’ll even go as far to say that some of the non-quacks in MD are just as uneffective as the quacks.

I’ll have to take your word for it. Or not.

Remember we’re trying to reasonably adult here.

Accpunture is accepted on some insurance programs and there are boards that provide a license to practice it. That alone should tell people that it’s good stuff.

In my experience, it’s specifically been shown effective for treatment of chronic pain. Interesting in its own right, but hardly earth-shattering stuff.

Looking at data and tests won’t help you see what chinese medicine is or does. Again, that’s your idea of healing which will set you back if you went to a TCM school to learn.

In honor of your wisdom, I just created a signature featuring your quote. No worries mate, the quote’ll be appropriately attributed.

24

Thanks for posting,recently returned to the board.

25

Like it or not, fragbot, the anecdotes I’ve mentioned about hypertension and accupuncture are REAL.

Besides, not all Western medical science works for everything. They’re learning all the time themselves.

I need not answer your appendectomy question because there’s enough stuff going on both ways in China for that to be seen. Don’t believe me? GO THERE. SEE the people who’ve done well after having accupuncture as their anesthesia.

There are a ton of people who’ve gotten better because of what Eastern medicine has done.

No amount of disbelief on your part will change that - and many a Western medical physician would agree.

26

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
Like it or not, fragbot, the anecdotes I’ve mentioned about hypertension and accupuncture are REAL.[/B]

What is it about TCM discussions that engender postings wholly lacking in critical thought?

Anyhow, I had hoped I wouldn’t need to be so explicit. I don’t doubt your student was able to control his blood pressure since that’s a well-documented side-effect of exercise.

It’s not the healing effect of Chinese medicine. It’s simply the healing effect of exercise. Or is walking to the grocery now TCM as well?

The classic example is the oft-referenced study about TJQ in the nursing home leading to a reduction in the number of falls. While this is nice in its own right, it says nothing about the health benefits of TJQ. Unless you’d posit that TJQ provides a greater benefit than any type of core training that trains the pro-prioceptive reflex.

Besides, not all Western medical science works for everything. They’re learning all the time themselves.

Tomorrow morning the sun will rise.

What do my previous statement and yours have in common?

I need not answer your appendectomy question because there’s enough stuff going on both ways in China for that to be seen. Don’t believe me? GO THERE. SEE the people who’ve done well after having accupuncture as their anesthesia.

Last time I looked at this topic, accupuncture was not commonly used for routine surgery even in China. While this may be due somewhat to a bias towards modern medicine, it also has to do with the fact that accupuncture works inconsistently across a population.

There are a ton of people who’ve gotten better because of what Eastern medicine has done.

Tomorrow evening the sun will set.

Again, what do our statements have in common?

No amount of disbelief on your part will change that - and many a Western medical physician would agree. [/B]

Your use of the word belief is particularly appropriate in a discussion of TCM.

Overall, like most people with whom I’ve had this discussion, you respond with a flinging knee without understanding what I find lacking in alternative medicine.

It’s not that I think it works or not. I have no idea if it does or not, but its efficacy is **** near impossible to determine.

Furthermore, on the topic of alternative medicine in general, I find the following things problematic about it:

  1. well-done research on its efficacy and side effects (“but herbs are safe because they’re natural” –> bulls***) is extremely difficult to find.
  2. its practitioners often seem offended by the whole idea of proving the efficacy of their methods. This is particularly strange since if I were an alternative health practitioner I’d be very excited to have research done on my methods. Instead, they’ll fall back on the “we’ve been doing this for years” argument. Well, with an attitude like that, it’s no wonder they’re still providing 18th century medical care.
  3. discussing the topic with its adherents is like visiting a old time southern revival. “Praise Jesus Echinacea,” “Hallelujah Qigong,” and “Arnica Amen” are all here with us today.
27

Hmmm, didn’t I comment somewhere in this thread that in the East especially in Japan and Korea and small extent China, the governments fund clinical testing of TCM especially its herbal medicine. And these results are published in proper medical journal. You can get prescrption of herbal medicine from your G.P.

28

Thanks for posting.

“Hmmm, didn’t I comment somewhere in this thread that in the East especially in Japan and Korea and small extent China, the governments fund clinical testing of TCM especially its herbal medicine. And these results are published in proper medical journal. You can get prescrption of herbal medicine from your G.P.”
Yes.I have the idea that herbal drugs are often handed out pretty much over-the-counter too.

“Last time I looked at this topic, accupuncture was not commonly used for routine surgery even in China. While this may be due somewhat to a bias towards modern medicine, it also has to do with the fact that accupuncture works inconsistently across a population.”
Yeah.
One shocking and maybe well-known example was showing how acupuncture works as anesthesia for neurosurgery.
However,this particular case proved to be faking and let´s say the hands of anesthesiology were floating around.

29

fragbot and former castleva, you uneducated laymen should go to Western medical school and see how much Eastern therapies are accepted.

You guys would be LAUGHED OUT of Western medical schools.

This discussion is nothing but a flame war against Chinese medicine.

30

“This discussion is nothing but a flame war against Chinese medicine.”
:confused:

“You guys would be LAUGHED OUT of Western medical schools.”

:rolleyes:

Just take it easy,calm down.

31

Former,

If you visited a TCM doctor and tried this experiment:

You stand across the room and hold out your hand. The TCM doctor points his finger at your hand. (You are 20 feet away from him) When he shoots energy into your hand, you will feel a heat, tingly sensation in your hand that is noticable and not psychological.

If that happened, what would you think about TCM and all that talk about Chi energy?

NOTE I’m being serious here guys. Not some wack post about chi this and chi that. I have met 2 people that can do what I just mentioned above.

32

"Former,

If you visited a TCM doctor and tried this experiment:

You stand across the room and hold out your hand. The TCM doctor points his finger at your hand. (You are 20 feet away from him) When he shoots energy into your hand, you will feel a heat, tingly sensation in your hand that is noticable and not psychological.

If that happened, what would you think about TCM and all that talk about Chi energy?

NOTE I’m being serious here guys. Not some wack post about chi this and chi that. I have met 2 people that can do what I just mentioned above."

I´m a skeptic so I prefer to analyze carefully,but to answer your question.-
One thing to take into account (since you mentioned psychology) is that of expectation,if my hand would start to burn (so to speak) without me not expecting it,then one could say it has some merit.
But if I´m aware of what is supposed to happen,my very own psyche may assist me very well.
Of course now,this would require me to actually have me to feel it.
As when it comes to chi energy,it would still remain questionable whether we actually need chi to explain this,people have the tendency to explain things by paranormal forces in such cases when it is indeed hard to explain in common sense.
I´d like to see a test being done in controlled enviroment though.

33

I´m a skeptic so I prefer to analyze carefully,but to answer your question.-
One thing to take into account (since you mentioned psychology) is that of expectation,if my hand would start to burn (so to speak) without me not expecting it,then one could say it has some merit.
But if I´m aware of what is supposed to happen,my very own psyche may assist me very well.
Of course now,this would require me to actually have me to feel it.
As when it comes to chi energy,it would still remain questionable whether we actually need chi to explain this,people have the tendency to explain things by paranormal forces in such cases when it is indeed hard to explain in common sense.
I´d like to see a test being done in controlled enviroment though.

A test in a controlled environment? chuckle It’d be like testing the existence of God.

I’m reminded of an old CMA story. Some guy was saying he could paralyze* someone without touching them and, sure enough, he could do it to his students. Unfortunately, he was nonplussed by the request that he “do it to that dog over there.”

It’s no different from the faith healer on TV. “Praise the lord, I can walk.”

*paralyze or heal with chi. Two sides of the same coin.

34

Hey Fragbot,

Can you take that stuff off of your signature? Or do you want me to explain what I meant with those words?

“Looking at data and clinical tests won’t help you understand TCM”

Becuase Former castle wants to see this proof and that proof , but the only finding that that will lead to is that “TCM is effective” which still won’t give him any knowledge about TCM.

His understanding of healing, via western medicine, won’t help him in TCM either because everything that he knows right now, he will have to let go of (emtpy the cup) if he watned to learn TCM./.

35

OK.

“A test in a controlled environment? chuckle It’d be like testing the existence of God.”
Non-falsifiable.
:cool:

36

Former,

SInce you are so closed minded about TCM, I suggest that you not “meditate” about tcm anymore becuase you’ll get absolutely no where with it. You gave up before you tried. You’re like a guy going into a race who keeps thinking " dman, am i going to win?"

Like Huangvaikuan, I’m out.

BTW- what type of stuff are you reading anyways? magazine for skeptics? That’s like reading “The negative thinker’s outlook on life”

37

“SInce you are so closed minded about TCM, I suggest that you not “meditate” about tcm anymore becuase you’ll get absolutely no where with it. You gave up before you tried. You’re like a guy going into a race who keeps thinking " dman, am i going to win?” "
OK.

"Like Huangvaikuan, I’m out. "
Too bad.Because I started to like you.

“BTW- what type of stuff are you reading anyways? magazine for skeptics? That’s like reading “The negative thinker’s outlook on life””
I read that kind of stuff too.
No,it is not negative thinking.

38

Castle,

You were starting to like me? So if you like me then what do I get?? Some organic food?

39

"Castle,

You were starting to like me? So if you like me then what do I get?? Some organic food?"

I´m afraid I do not quite understand your expression (funny it is though)
While I may not be able to offer organic food,we might still be able to participate in productive discussions in future.

40

I don’t visit these boards much anymore but I have managed to wade through tis thread and I may have something to add.

First off, I’m a medical anthropologist with a specialization in communication between Chinese medical practitioners and Bio-medical practitioners. I teach at a school of Chinese medicine (med. history, ethics, Qigong). I’m a bit miffed by the attitude of superiority being expressed by Bio-medical partisans here.

The idea that Bio-medicine is older than 300 years is a bit of a stretch. William Harvey in the 1600’s? It took 200 years for his work on the heart to have a wide enough effect to stop the practice of bloodletting as it was done in Humoral medicine. Pharmacy? Chemistry didn’t even have a nomenclature until 1769 (Lavoisier) let alone a medical focus. Jenner in the 1780’s was beginning to work on something that a modern physician would find familiar. Basically the Bio-medicine that we recognize today didn’t begin until after the changes in aesepsis (hygiene) and anaesthesia after the Crimean war in 1850’s. So saying its older than 150 years what I call extreme arrogance and revisionist power mongering.

Another basic aspect of arguments against Chinese medicine is the religious adherance to experimental verification. The idea that all aspects of knowledge can be revealed by isolation is not a fact, its a belief. Do we really know enough to isolate for blind studies involving humans? Does measuring parts-per-million tell us what a healing experience is? There are a lot of presumptions that go along with the philosophy of logical positivism, superior to simple superstition to be sure, but is that all there is to TCM?

Lets keep in mind that there are medical dossiers in China stretching back to Chunyu yi (215-167 BCE). TCM is based on observation not isolation. If it were a mere 150 years old then this would make it very suspect. However, it is 2500 years of recorded observation, and that gives it some weight.

One thing that I love about these arguments is the dismissal of the effect of the mind. The first problem with this is the religion that supposes the mind and the body are seperate things. This is total FAITH and has no basis in anything other than convenience. Keep in mind that when de Cartes proposed “cogito ergo sum” he was saying “I can doubt all but that I doubt.” The same solopsistic box that thousands of first year philosophy students crawl into. He used God to get out (“God is not an evil genius trying to deceive me.”) do I have to believe in God to believe in Bio-medicine? To dismiss psychosomatic effects of treatments is to miss how virtually all of the healing in the world occurs. While there are truly biological effects from the interaction of chemical substances, why is there so much variation, and what about the statistical left-overs for whom there was no effect?

Yet there is more to this. While acupuncture anaesthesia is used in China, this use is minor. One of the main reasons is that it is a new idea, it doesn’t have many years behind it. However, there are some compelling questions that come out of it. If it is purely psychosomatic that why does acuanaesthesia work on animals? I’m confident that it doesn’t have to do with the belief system of the horse having a tooth extracted.

I love when Bio-medical partisans hint at quackery when talking of TCM yet ignore the massive amount of iatrogenic illness and death caused by modern treatment methods. Imagine a world dominated by TCM where Bio-medicine stepped forward to be judged for viability.

T “How deep?”
B “500 years…, well, 300…, well 150 years.”
T “Hmmm, alright then, is it safe?”
B “Very safe, the safest, only tens of thousands are killed by it each year.”
T “Hmmm, How about etiology (disease causes), what is this 40% idiopathic?”
B “It means no known cause can be determined.”
T “You don’t know?”
B “No bloody idea really, we treat them anyway though.”
T “We’ll be in touch.”

Now don’t get me wrong, I get as ****ed off with apologists who trash the value of Bio-medicine and try to make TCM into some magical healing method of the ancients. Bio-medicine is fabulous for traumatic injury and surgery, and its role in the control of infectious disease is not at all appreciated today. Yet it sort of sucks at issues of aging and chronic disease. “Walk more, and don’t smoke” is a feeble excuse for preventative medicine. Its a product of its culture. Bio-medicine is an industry and suffers from its association to corporate bottom lines, and has done so since the after effects of the Flexnor Report of 1908. I have no doubt that TCM will suffer similarly in years to come.

The idea that one is better than the other begs the question of “for what?” In Canada TCM is not considered “alternative medicine” it is “complementary medicine.” This is an attempt to recognize that it is a valuable and time tested method of healing that offers support for that 150 year old system that gets called “traditional medicine” by those that do not know the past.

The simplistic scientifically styled arguments against TCM that have been presented here are like religious fundamentalism that says you are a believer or a heretic. As an historian I teach that science is from Christianity and carries forward many of its assumptions. Sadly, many of the metaphysical assumptions of tight back-sided puritans are weilded against TCM when these discussions start. Then the defenders reply with anecdotal stories and emotion. When will modern people stop behaving like crusaders and infidels and realize that these medical systems don’t need to satisfy each others criterion. Both are good in their respective spheres.