Debunking TCM

In a previous post, I submitted a website which provided a critique of the CSICOP association which attempts to debunk the paranormal, traditional Chinese medicine included.

http://www.alternativescience.com/csicop.htm

In an imperfect world, we all suffer from a gap between how we see ourselves and how others see us: between what we’d like to be and what we are. But in 30 years of journalism I haven’t found a more striking gulf between self-image and performance than CSICOP – the Committee for Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal.

Everything about CSICOP purports to be scientific – objective, fair, independent, investigative, rational. In reality, CSICOP is the home of the Paradigm Police, a kind of Pseudoscience-Central that deals in fundamentalist prejudice, opinion and bias, informed by a single, central hidden agenda – to debunk at any cost any phenomenon, evidence or theory that touches on the list of taboo subjects that CSICOP has drawn up as forbidden.

The contradictions start even with CSICOP’s name. Any rational person would expect an organisation that calls itself a Committee for Scientific Investigation to actually involve itself in carrying out scientific investigations, but CSICOP conducts no such investigations, it merely makes ex cathedra pronouncements telling the public what it should and shouldn’t believe, without troubling itself about conducting experiments.

When it was first formed in 1976, CSICOP did attempt a foray into scientific investigation, which turned into a farcical scandal. It decided to target the statistical work of French mathematician Michel Gauquelin whose work appeared to suggest there might be something in astrology after all.

Within a short time however, CSICOP officer Dennis Rawlins, who was acting as the study’s statistician and was the only astronomer on CSICOP’s council, announced he was quitting and accused CSICOP of blatantly fiddling the figures to prove Gauquelin wrong. (Click here for full story).

Since then, CSICOP has quietly dropped any pretence of being an investigating body and acts instead as the spiritual home of scientific fundamentalism – a church with many priests but few congregations.

CSICOP’s founder and president is Dr Paul Kurtz, formerly a professor with New York State University. Perhaps surprisingly, Dr Kurtz is not a scientist but a philosopher. In a memorable TV interview, on the subject of ‘aliens’, he said, “If we are going to admit aliens, what are we going to admit next? Fairies? Elves? Where do we draw the line?”

In this spontaneous comment Dr Kurtz has unconsciously disclosed his entire philosophy of science. For him, science is not open, without boundaries, up for exploration and discovery without fear or favour. Science is closed like a classified or restricted area to which ideas and people are “admitted” by duly authorised guardians, and once inside must stick to the authorised boundaries.

It is the guardians who “draw the line” around the boundaries of science. And Dr Kurtz clearly considers himself to be one of these guardians because he says “Where do we draw the line”?

Fairies, Elves, Aliens, Cold Fusion, Psychokinesis, ESP, acupressure, acupuncture, hypnotherapy, homeopathy, and dozens of other subjects are not acceptable subjects for investigation by science, or even by the media, not because the evidence says so, but because Dr Kurtz and his colleagues say so.

The fundamental rationale of Dr Kurtz’s brainchild organisation is the same as his personal world view: The public must not be given facts and arguments and left to make up their own mind. Science must be left to those, like Dr Kurtz, who are qualified to judge what is true and what is false. CSICOP sees its function as being to educate an ignorant public in what is scientifically acceptable.

Of course it is fair to add that while all this may be anti-scientific and against the spirit of academic freedom it is a perfectly legitimate position to adopt and Dr Kurtz and his colleagues are perfectly entitled to think and speak as they wish. So why is CSICOP cause for concern?

The reason is that CSICOP has not merely contented itself with engaging in debate against what it sees as crackpot science, its members have taken active steps designed to silence their opponents and deny them access to media outlets.

CSICOP has formed what it calls the “Council for Media Integrity”. This sounds like a worthy idea, and CSICOP claims its only aim is to provide a counter to what it regards as one-sided reporting – again a reasonable idea. Until, that is, you learn what some CSICOP members actually do.

CSICOP’s media relations officer, Matthew Nisbet, is quite open about the Council for Media Integrity’s real purpose. It is, he says, to “turn the heat up on the entertainment industry and media.”

Whenever a major TV network carries a programme whose content CSICOP disapproves, the organisation alerts members by email, encouraging them to bombard the network and the programme’s producers will vociferous complaints, insisting that such content should not be broadcast. Not unnaturally, some producers and network executives feel it wiser to give in to this kind of pressure from prominent academics and avoid such subjects in future.

More insidiously, CSICOP members have also complained vociferously to the commercial companies who sponsor the programmes in question by buying advertising time. CSICOP members have threatened to organise boycotts of the products of such sponsor companies if they fail to agree not to sponsor such programmes again – a powerful commercial threat that sounds alarmingly like intellectual


This is a relevant topic, with no foul language and provides an alternative assessement of those critiquing TCM.

The moderator of this forum has seen fit to remove it once and I have reported this to the administrator of the site. Should this be removed again, we will repeat the process or request a replacement moderator for this forum.

I’m not sure what is happening here with deleted posts…

This post, and the one before it, seem to be saying that there are politics driving scientific investigation. Yes, that is probably so…and perhaps good. One positive outcome is that fringe areas don’t get accepted too readily and that resources are put behind things with greater chances of success. (Ahhh, that other ‘science’…economics.)

In any case, as for the site being considered here…take the section on Skepticism . The article seems to be saying that those in the list are victims of politics. For example, it suggests that if only MIT hadn’t been crooked in its evaluation, the Cold Fusion guys, Fleischmann and Pons would be recognized as geniuses and everyone would have more electricity than we could use.

Is it really that simple? Can a single institution like MIT really keep ground breaking research from the public? Are Fleischmann and Pons so innocent themselves?

Apparently, an Italian court doesn’t think so. According to a judge in Italy, the cold fusion experiement was faked and the scientists “removed from reality” in their claims. ITALY - COLD FUSION & JUDGE’S VERDICT Courtesy of Jed Rothwell 26 March 1996

Of particular note:

However there were some negative aspects; 1. They failed to mention the work of Prof. Stephen Jones which began in 1986. Fleischmann and Pons had agreed with Jones to submit their papers for publication together on the 24th March. 2. When it was pointed out to Fleischmann and Pons that their gamma ray peak was at an impossible energy, they changed the scale. 3. They claimed to have observed and measured fusion for a long time but were not subject to gamma radiation - therefore it was not fusion. 4. In April 1989, the US government set up a committee of 22 scientists to check the results. Despite complicated work, the results were negative. This is described in the book by John Huizenga, the Co-Chairman, entitled Cold Fusion - The Scientific Fiasco of the Century. 5. On the 8th July 1989, in the Deseret News (daily newspaper published in Utah) appeared an article (with photograph) where Pons declared that he had made an apparatus of the size of a thermos which would satisfy the needs of a normal family and could make tea. Pons also said that the boiler was giving off 10 to 15 times the energy put in.

The court noted that little progress had been made since 1991, There was no good theory to explain the claims of cold fusion and there was a failure to observe the products of fusion as would be expected (tritons, neutrons, protons, 3He, 4He and gamma rays).

The court noted the comportment of Fleischmann and Pons who provided different and inconsistent data at different times, noted that they omitted to cite the work of Prof. Jones, noted the manner in which they dealt with the press, and noted how they considered future developments and concluded that they were separated from reality.

New Energy News (NEN) copyright 1996 by Fusion Information Center, Inc.

Using this same technique, one may take a look at all the other folks on the list. Were they victims of politics? Perhaps. Are they the ground breaking scientists the article purports. Probably not.

As this relates to TCM…the same sorts of questions come up. One should not take claims on faith and investigations must take into account all information. No one can very well on a point of view just because they believe firmly in it.

CT

Originally posted by ctoepker
This post, and the one before it, seem to be saying that there are politics driving scientific investigation.

I thought what they were saying is that the people being pointed to as “scientific critics” of TCM are in fact not scientific at all.

Frankly, this takes the onus of “being scientific” off of TCM, as far as this argument is concerned. If the criticisms of TCM aren’t required to be scientific, neither is it. And if the criticism consists of “it’s not scientific”, then the criticism has been handily refuted.

This post, and the one before it, seem to be saying that there are politics driving scientific investigation. Yes, that is probably so…and perhaps good. One positive outcome is that fringe areas don’t get accepted too readily and that resources are put behind things with greater chances of success. (Ahhh, that other ‘science’…economics.)

I would say rather that resources are put behind projects with a greater chance of feeding back into the incumbent power structure (political, medical, telco, etc.), but that’s just me.

Negative outcomes:
NIH overfunds bad research proposals just because they are in a popular area e.g. retroviruses, etc., while reseachers in less popular fields with solid proposals find it difficult to get funding.
Quality research which threatens imcumbent belief structure or infrastructure lags behind, see relative slow progress in field of behavioral genetics, clean power, alternative therapies.

To me it is not really such a big deal that politics drive funding for scientific investigation, because historically it’s always the independents who come up with the really innovative ideas. The problem is organizations, corporations, and governments who actively try to crush the development of new technology, protocols, ideas and therapies despite evidence supporting them. This happens very often in technology, where the large companies buy out small companies, just so that they can throw away all the prototype hardware that was a competetive threat.

Therefore is it worth while for people to know about the existence of organizations like CSICOP since they actively use thier influence to hush up the media.

RAF, Thank you for continuing to post this message. It’s relevence to the TCM and potential threat of media censorship is clear, especially within the context of this forum.

Originally posted by vikinggoddess
[B]

I would say rather that resources are put behind projects with a greater chance of feeding back into the incumbent power structure (political, medical, telco, etc.), but that’s just me.

This is along the lines of what I meant by politics.

CT

Therefore is it worth while for people to know about the existence of organizations like CSICOP since they actively use thier influence to hush up the media.

Organizations like CSICOP exert negligible influence, especially over the mainstream media. Things like UFO abduction stories, miracle cures, etc… are always sexier than hard science. Look at the popularity of garbage like Jonathan Edwards.

Most people do not understand the most fundamental components of legitimate scientific research. Take an intro level methods course at any college and you’ll see that right away.

People generally fear what they do not understand, so they perceive the requirements of proof that good scientists take for granted as excessive and hostile. Perhaps in cases like CSICOP, those requirements are framed in a hostile manner, but good science in its application is without prejudice.

It’s clear from many of the posts on this board that there are a lot of true believers, perhaps on both sides of the fence. You can’t possibly critically study a topic from such a perspective, because you have a bias to only see the results that confirm what you already believe to be true. There’s no point in engaging in debate from such a perspective, at least not on the level of proving/disproving theory. All that goes on between true believers is on the level of religious debate, and it always comes down to why everyone who disagrees with you is wrong.

So, what’s the point?

Originally posted by dwid

It’s clear from many of the posts on this board that there are a lot of true believers, perhaps on both sides of the fence. You can’t possibly critically study a topic from such a perspective, because you have a bias to only see the results that confirm what you already believe to be true. There’s no point in engaging in debate from such a perspective, at least not on the level of proving/disproving theory. All that goes on between true believers is on the level of religious debate, and it always comes down to why everyone who disagrees with you is wrong.

Well said. I wish I had said it. [;)]

CT

Ditto to that…

Probably the best way to approach any belief is with a sort of inquiring agnosticism.

A Brazilian friend of mine once had a Brazilian witch do all sorts of stuff to exorcise my house of all negative energy (I was going through a rough spot at the time and my friend wanted to do anything that could help). The witch used a real hodge-podge of Brazilian-style voodoo and Wicca-style ritual. Did it work? Hell, I don’t know, but I did feel better afterwards, surprisingly so for being a non-believer.

I just read in Robert Anton Wilson’s latest book that only about 20% of “modern” allopathic remedies have been subject to double-blind testing. The rest is just hunches…Consider the source, but it is food for thought…

Hope that didn’t seem too non-sequiturious (is that a word? it is now…)

non-sequituriousness and sexy science

The problem with science is that it is so sterile and the human mind is anything but. There’s little romance in science, little poetry, and people crave that. The universe becomes cold and lonely - no purpose, no god, a bleak collection of atoms in motion. There is no equation for love. However, there is an undeniable efficiency in such a world view, so those that adopt a scientific stance often have a lot to combat from the general public.

To get non-sequiturious, let’s take a popular science fitcion allegory, Star Trek. The initial series pitted Vulcan logic (symbolic of science) against Kirk’s brash righteuosness and McCoys’ coutry doctor know-how. Despite Spock’s amazing vulcan powers, it was often good old human values that won the day (or the episode). The next generation replaced Spock with Data, a man machine seeking his human-ness. Voyager took it the next logical step, Seven of Nine. She had the same essential problem as Data, but she was sexy. After all, we’re talking popular entertainment. Now, with Enterprise, we’ve come full circle with the sexy Vulcan, T’pol, but it’s essentially the same dynamic - science vs. humanity. So for me, when CSICOP, NIH or TCM gets some sexy aliens in skin tight cat suits, I’ll start taking them more seriously. :eek:

OK, sorry, I couldn’t resist. Scientists and TCM fanatics can be sooooo stuffy.

ya, but of course spock is really just a archetypical Mescalito like Peter Pan, The leprechaun, etc., known throughout multiple shamanic tradtions. (more robert anton wilson). maybe we should all take peyote and reconvene on this topic…

That’s just because he has pointy ears

There was that one episode with the Yangs vs. the Coms (yankees vs. communists) where they said he was the devil. I tend to think of mescalito as more of a prankster deity, akin to coyote in the native american tradition, or monkey king or ji dian in Chinese myth. None of them would look good in skin tight space cat suits anyway.

But seriously, science lacks emotion, which is my sideways point about sexy vulcans. Emotion is a great part of medicine. That’s where TCM shines. For a TCM practitioner to take my pulses, he or she must sit next to me for quite some time, more time then I usually spend with my doctor, nurse and receptionist combined. That certianly has to factor into the process. Science has dehumanized a lot of medicine, which is a big problem since humans are what medicine is all about.

Re: non-sequituriousness and sexy science

Originally posted by GeneChing
The problem with science is that it is so sterile and the human mind is anything but. There’s little romance in science, little poetry, and people crave that. The universe becomes cold and lonely - no purpose, no god, a bleak collection of atoms in motion. There is no equation for love. However, there is an undeniable efficiency in such a world view, so those that adopt a scientific stance often have a lot to combat from the general public.

Just because science strives to isolate variables and calls attention to a person’s own biases doesn’t mean it lacks passion. The dicotomy is false.

Consider:

“Art is a passion pursued with discipline,
science is a discipline pursued with passion.”

Arthur Sackler, Smithsonian contributor

One must allow the theoretician his imagination, for there is no other possible way for reaching the [scientific] goal.

Albert Einstein

Poets say science takes away from the beauty of the stars - mere globs of gas atoms. I, too, can see the stars on a desert night, and feel them. But do I see less or more?

Richard P. Feynman

Anyone who knows about the very real people involved in the pursuit of science knows that passion, imagination and hunches play a big part. It is shameful to portray it as an inhuman, sterile, bleak, cold and lonely pursuit.

When a skeptic like FCV comes forward, he is attacked for his bias. Yet when this sort of bias is put forward it is welcomed unquestioningly. That is very hypocritical and just wrong.

CT

The sword always cuts both ways.

If you look at the number and content of FC’s posts, it looked like the sheriff was about to clean up the town. The content of his posts weren’t the problem, at least from my perspective.

Censoring and/or deleting relevant topical material is power gone awry. When you delete material sceptical of the skeptic, then you’ve indulged your own biases at the expense of the free exchange of ideas.

Short of someone blantly trolling, its not a moderator’s charge to assess the content of a post: that’s the prerogative of the reader. “I don’t see the logic of your post so I may leave it up for awhile or I may delete it. Explain your logic. I think I’ll delete it” just doesn’t fly. Some of us tried to explain this but were consistently deleted, with no explanation, and also called a couple of frickin names in other posts.

It was FC’s decision to step down and leave and he, as Gene stated, is welcome back anytime.

If you can’t take the heat, then ya gotta get out of the kitchen.

Anyone who knows about the very real people involved in the pursuit of science knows that passion, imagination and hunches play a big part. It is shameful to portray it as an inhuman, sterile, bleak, cold and lonely pursuit.

Ya, but you have to see the perspective that something like scientific a double blind study, where one group gets no treatment and another gets a treatment that the researchers/MDs are pretty sure will have positive effect, has it’s inhuman aspects. Seems the human thing to do would be give treatment to everyone and hope for the best, but that’s not science.

I also don’t think that passion/imagination excludes sterile, cold and lonely. You have to have some serious passion about to spend 60+ hours/ week in a research lab (with AC and sterile solutions)…those poor overworked grad students and nutty professors. I finally left research because I felt it was too microcosmic and without significant application/interaction with the outside world. Obviously not the case with all research, but the atmosphere among scientists is a lot different compared to other groups of people who work daily with individuals and all their complexities.

Wow, this has turned into a really interesting thread.

Amazingly peaceable as well.

Anyway,

Gene:

Emotion is a great part of medicine. That’s where TCM shines. For a TCM practitioner to take my pulses, he or she must sit next to me for quite some time, more time then I usually spend with my doctor, nurse and receptionist combined. That certianly has to factor into the process. Science has dehumanized a lot of medicine, which is a big problem since humans are what medicine is all about.

It’s really interesting that you mention this, and at least some aspects of regular medicine are catching on.

I’ve been looking into to going to grad school to become a Nurse Practitioner, which is sort of like a stripped-down version of a primary care physician. Anyway, studies have shown that patients prefer Nurse Practitioners to regular doctors because they’re more accessible and spend more time with them. Studies also show that patients are more likely to follow the instructions of Nurse Practitioners, probably because they can take the time to talk to the patient and explain things thoroughly.

Of course, hospitals and HMO’s love Nurse Practitioners because they do the job of a doctor at a much lower salary, so I guess everybody wins.:smiley:

It’s interesting to me how much difference it makes to just take the whole formalized doctor-patient relationship down a couple of notches.

ctoepker took the words out of my mouth as far as his rebuttal to the sterility of science comments. Scientists have such lousy PR these days. I blame Hollywood. :smiley:

vikinggoddess, I can understand where you’re coming from. I am currently employed in a research job, and it would be hypocritical of me to say that everything in research is a joy. I think the best scientists are ones that grow up in a very human/humane environment. These are the ones that seem to stay down to earth even when doing the 60+ hours per week in the lab. I know plenty of folks that seem like they were factory-made to be academics, and have PhD’s going back several generations in their families. Lots of time, they have the hunger but not the heart.

devil’s advocate

CTK: It was FC’s methodology that got him in trouble. It wouldn’t have been a problem if he wasn’t a moderator. Now that he’s no longer a moderator, he can be on an even playing field with this discussion. I do hope he comes back. As for being attacked, this is a forum. We all get attacked, if we perceive conflicting opinions as attacks. The instant you get defensive about it, you show a weakness that is easy to exploit. It’s troll strategy, but it does often make a member run away if they can’t take it, so troll or no, they win. As for skeptics being attacked for their bias, well, we all take sides on this debate. Surely you aren’t attacking the skeptics. It’s a lively debate, which is what forums are for. It’s a shame when someone takes it personally. It’s really ironic that of all people, the skeptics here are the ones taking it so. They should be the least attached.
Actually, I do agree with you that science has is points of passion, although I’d venture to say that Einstein and Feynman are exceptional scientists. I was in a PhD program for Cog Sci, and I remember the great photo of Master and Johnson, who did a lot of sex studies. There were these two stodgy doctors in lab coats with clipboards, watching dispassionately as a naked women writhing in ecstacy with monitors all over her body. That’s the prevailing image of scientists. To be perfectly honest, I actually lean more towards the skeptical side. In fact, sometimes I think that inhibits my practice. I said it before - I hate acupuncture. But it gave positive results, so I have to disregard my skepticism for the practicality of it.
In time, I’ll discuss more of my bad experiences with TCM, but for now, I’m more interested in seeing the tone of this forum settle down into a more comfratable flow. And I’d love to see FC come back.

VKGD: The root of passion is suffering, so put that way, I’ll concede my point to you. Which viking goddess do you represent anyway?

DWID: Best of luck becoming an NP. The NP’s and the PA’s are the workhorses of modern medicine. They have my utmost respect. I do a lot of volunteer work at the Haight Ashbury Free Medical Clinic, so I work with a lot of NPs.

Here is also an interesting assessment which may lay at the bottom of those skeptical of TCM:


The Fallacy of the Enlightenment is the glib assumption that there is only one limit to what human beings can know, and that limit is reality itself. In this view, widely held by atheists, agnostics and other self-styled rationalists, human beings can continually find out more and more until eventually there is nothing more to discover. The Enlightenment Fallacy holds that human reason and science can, in principle, unmask the whole of reality.

In his “Critique of Pure Reason,” Kant showed that this premise is false. In fact, he argued, there is a much greater limit to what human beings can know. The only way that we apprehend reality is through our five senses. But why should we believe, Kant asked, that our five-mode instrument for apprehending reality is sufficient for capturing all of reality? What makes us think that there is no reality that goes beyond, one that simply cannot be apprehended by our five senses?

Kant persuasively noted that there is no reason whatsoever for us to believe that we can know everything that exists. Indeed what we do know, Kant said, we know only through the refracted filter of our experience. Kant argued that we cannot even be sure that our experience of a thing is the same as the thing-in-itself. After all, we see in pretty much the same way that a camera does, and yet who would argue that a picture of a boat is the same thing as a boat?

Kant isn’t arguing against the validity of perception or science or reason. He is simply showing their significant limits. These limits cannot be erased by the passage of time or by further investigation and experimentation. Rather, the limits on reason are intrinsic to the kind of beings that humans are, and to the kind of apparatus that we possess for perceiving reality. The implication of Kant’s argument is that reality as a whole is, in principle, inaccessible to human beings. Put another way, there is a great deal that human beings simply will never know.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110004153

Re: non-sequituriousness and sexy science

Originally posted by GeneChing
The problem with science is that it is so sterile and the human mind is anything but. There’s little romance in science, little poetry, and people crave that.

:confused: You sure? I find a great variety of science to be absolutely fascinating; full of romance and poetry. Why do you think otherwise? Freud, Darwin, and Einstein are absolutely fabulous. Nevermind Bohm, Leibniz, and that lot.

The NP’s and the PA’s are the workhorses of modern medicine.

PA’s?

physicians assistants

I couldn’t have said this any better…

There have been a number of misunderstandings in the WEst about acupuncture and moxibustion. They have nothing to do with parapsychology, occult influences or ‘pyshic powers,’ and consequently do not deserve the praises of those who believe in such things. They do not depend entirely on suggestion, nor on hypnotic phenomena at all, and they are not contradictory of modern scienfitic medicine; consequently they do not deserve the odium theolgicum of the medical profession of the West. Acupunture (with moxa) is simply a system of medical treatment which was already two thousand years old when modern science was born, and which had developed in a civilization quite different from that of Europe. Today the explanations of its actions are being sought in terms of modern physiology and pathology; great advances have been made in this direction though the end is not yet in sight. It looks as though the pohysiology and biochemistry of the central and autonomic nervous systems will be the leading elements in our understanding, but many other systems, endocrinological and immunological, are also sure to be involved. Another problem of great interest is the exact nature of acu-points in terms of histology and bio-phyisics. Since modern science did not spontaneously grow up in Chinese culture, acupuncture and moxa are traditionally based upon a theoritcal system essentially medieval in character, though very sophisticated and subtle, indeed full of valuable insights and salutary lessons for modern scientific medicine. Again the exact re-interpretation and re-formation of these theories, if such a thing is possible, will be a difficult matter for the future. However, we think it likely that in the oecumenical medicine of the coming years there will be a definte place for acupuncture both in theraphy and analgesia - exactly how far this will be so it is too early as yet to say.
–Joseph Needham, Celestial Lancets (1980), page 318

All I’m saying is that the balance is needed and everyone needs to be open minded.

One should not follow the Queen’s advice to Alice and try to “imagine six impossible things before breakfast.”

CT