Can Tan Tui be considered a separate kind of kung fu? I know it is a part of Chaquan, but it seems that many kung fu masters were said to have mastered Tan Tui Men Quan (Ku Yu Cheong of Northern Shaolin, Chiu Chi Man of Praying Mantis, even Bruce Lee).
Yes, Tan T’ui can be considered a stand alone style. However, many masters reconize the value of this set have have incoperated into their curriculum. It is not only Ch’a style as you mention but most Northern styles have in the last 200 years.
It is written that if you just learn Tan Tui, you will have enough to defend your self.
There are many variations of Tan Tui such as 10, 12, 14, 16, 24 and if you conduct a search here I believe if I remember correctly, there is mention a 36 row. There is also reference of secret rows too.
Tan Tui- Is it a separate school of its own?
taichi4eva,
Tan Tui is not really a seperate kind of kung fu. Tan Tui was used to train basic techniques such as stances, punches, kicks, and simple body moves. It is used as entry training routines in northern Chinese martial arts. Most northern Chinese martial styles use Tan Tui to train their beginners. So, it does not belong to any styles.
NorthernShaolin,
When people describe Tan Tui, they tend to glorify it. But, Tan Tui itself can not be a complete system. Don’t get me wrong, it is a very very good training routine. It has its own purpose. We practice Tan tui too. It gave us solid foundation so we can practice more advance techniques. In the past, northern martial arts teachers use it to train beginners. It can be modified as long as the teachers thought the new routine can help their students. That is why there are so many differernt version of Tan Tui exists. Bottom line is that, Tan Tui is used to train basic stances, punches, kicks, and body moves. You can still use it to defend yourself to normal people. But, to fight with people with martial art background, you really need more advance training.
Just my personally opinions.
Cheers,
Robert,
Tan Tui was a separate system all to itself before it was adopted into Northern curriculums.
Tan Tui “perhaps” existed as a stand alone style in the past but no reference exists today of it.
Even so, what did the “Original” Tan Tui look like. You have versions that go from resembling “bad karate” to very intricate and I believe advanced techniuqes and theories.
For example: the version I do has its root from the Chin Woo but in time was modified to combine rows, add others, etc.
As robert commented regarding a complete MA. I really don’t see why Tan Tui couldn’t be considered such if a complete MA was to include all the ranges and skills (striking, trapping, throwing and grappling/joint locking) along with qi gong infusion.
As we do our set it contains all of this and so It should be considred a complete MA.
It is true that alot of schools have adopted the rudimentary ideas of tan tui and as such have not really studied/mastered its secrets.
IMO its a great set, especially for combat. Not very pretty but very realistic.
Tan Tui
> As robert commented regarding a complete MA. I really don’t
> see why Tan Tui couldn’t be considered such if a complete MA
> was to include all the ranges and skills (striking, trapping,
> throwing and grappling/joint locking) along with qi gong
> infusion.
You have said it. Tan Tui does not have enough materials in all the ranges and skills (striking, trapping, throwing and grappling/joint locking). You have to include all the ranges and skills to it to make it complete. Tan Tui is not designed to make a complete system from the beginning. That is not its purpose. Don’t make thing too complicated. Other forms have their purpose. Tan Tui is the same, It has its purpose. If it is a complete system, then there is no need to have other empty hand forms in most of northern shaolin systems.
Tan Tui does have the basics. But to be really good at all range and skills, you really need other training. There are many more ways of punches, kickings, throwing and grabbing in other forms. There are also other moves like steps, application combinations and many others that are also missing in Tan-Tui. CMA is not just punches and kicks.
On the other hand, Tan Tui is a very good training routines. Without it, most of our students could not build up a good foundation. That is why most northern shaolin systems have it.
We use Tan Tui as a training routines for beginners and intermediate level students. There are lot more things that need to train to make a student to get a higher level of skills.
If you mant to make Tan Tui a complete empty hand training system, you need to add a lot more materials to it. Then, it is not the original Tan-Tui routine any more.
According to the archives in China, it is reconized as a stand alone style. So if they said it is so then it is.
Tan Tui is complete onto itself with its existing techniques. All techniques have many levels of applications. As one masters a style, he gains the ability to “see” the other less obvious applications for the same technique.
Take any row in Tan T’ui, one can see the obvious application. But what makes this set stand the test of time is what is beyond what is obvious. This is what makes Tan Tui a stand alone style.
Other sets within a style exist but are really an expression of the same or similar techniques found in bacis sets. Some people like to call these sets higher level but higher level sets come and go with time.
Greetings,
Tan Tui is a special love of mine.
For me Tan Tui is a style. I udes to think it was an extinct style unitl I had the opportunity to speak with the late Fred M.A. Wu. He spoke to me about how the practitioners would stamp and shout during their practice. He also spoke to me about the dummy work that they would do and about, hold on to your hats, Tan Tui Chi Kung! To this day I have not seen these methods.
I once spoke with GM Chan about His Tam Tui method. He told me that is method is more advanced that the others. I have yet to have the opportunity to see that as well.
Ngokfei, please share more about the theories you have come across.
Thank you
mickey
I had to break this up into 2 parts:
My study of Tan Tui has focused on the extraction of techniques: blocking, striking, grappling, throwing and killing. They are all there; e.g., there are at least 12 throwing techniques in Tan Tui. They are not designed to be gentle either. The opponent’s head is smashes into the ground or lands with something broken.
Ultimately one’s perception of whether Tan Tui is a style may be shaded by the martix of the method that they are studying and by the practitioners own perceptions about the knowledge presented them.
mickey
Please forgive the typos,
Post one : used
Post Two : smashed into ..,and matrix
mickey
> According to the archives in China, it is reconized as a stand
> alone style. So if they said it is so then it is.
I do not know such a archives exist. It is probably created by someone recently. Even if it exsits, what it said may not quite right. Chinese never did archive in the past.
What I practiced is called Jiao Men Quan which is muslim style. Tan Tui is our core material. Chinese martial art masters seldom wrote down their materials because they did not teach people casually in the past.
> My study of Tan Tui has focused on the extraction of
> techniques: blocking, striking, grappling, throwing and killing.
> They are all there; e.g., there are at least 12 throwing
> techniques in Tan Tui.
Maybe your Tan Tui have 12 throwing tech. Mine does not have. But, if you can get good throwing techniques out of it, that is very godd. Try to practice with Chinese Shuai Ciao people and see the difference. They are specialized in throwing.
Personally, I don’t believe one material cover all. But, people can believe whatever they like.
It is easy to test if Tan Tui is a complete system. Just practice it only and try to test it with people from other styles. If it works, it works. There is nothing to argue about. I will be very happy to see someone can do that. I believe in fact.
Originally posted by ngokfei
[B]
It is true that alot of schools have adopted the rudimentary ideas of tan tui and as such have not really studied/mastered its secrets.
IMO its a great set, especially for combat. Not very pretty but very realistic. [/B]
In closing I think Eric says it all.
That clip is posted on Empty Flower. No reason for you to waste your bandwidth.
I better save it then! It’s a good clip.
Please do post the other version. I would like to see it.
Thank You,
mickey
Interest being expressed here too.
Shaolin 12 section Tui tui does contain all the catagories of hand to hand combat found
in Chinese martial arts - striking, sticking, trapping and catching, throwing, various combination of these, etc. and in that sense it can be said it is complete. However in the sense that an CMA should contain the 18 weapons it is not a complete system :-)))).
I think the point is not whether Tan Tui contains every technique but that it is good basics that makes good fighters and that one is better off having master basics and knowing how to use them under the stress of combat in many situations, than knowing many advance and complicated forms. Because the Shaolin tradition has many impressive 'advanced’ sets some people get the false impression that more techniques creates a more effect fighter. My teacher would remind us of the importance of mastering the basics and knowing how to use them and not to just learn dozens and dozens of forms. To underline his point he would say that in the past there were very effective fighters that only practiced tan tui.
r.
r.
Good point. It reminds me of some fighting stories documented about Huo Yuen Chia, founder of Ching Wu (Jing Mo) Association, Even though his main style was Mi Tsung Chuan, in every fight that he was involved, witnesses have stated he used techniques from Tan T’ui, specifically his favorite was the first and second rows.
I defer to Mr. Young’s expertise here but…
Tan Tui does cover all ranges and has some good throws. Think about #4 and #8 alone. Although I agree it is mainly foundational and without pao chuan and cha chuan could not be considered complete, I still think there are are some good locks, takedowns and throws in Tan Tui.
On a side note, are you mad with us at Emptyflower “sc_guy”? We miss you:(
It is my understanding that Tan Tui is a complete martial art as Master Chan Poi is reputed to know the entire system. This was told to me by one of his high level students.
Peace