Hi,
I have seen two translation of Tam Tui both seeming to have different expression: SPRING legs or SNAPPING legs.
SPRING legs seems to be more bouncy in its expression, while the other way is snappy, like sharp, twiting movements.
Is either way right or wrong, or are they both just different ways of doing it?
This set has many versions so does the translation of its name:
The term “Spring” has become a universal translation for the form
Really has to do with where the set comes from because the meaning can be interpreted to mean spring or snap depending on the level of the kick found in most of the roads/rows.
The Chin Woo version actually is called Lung Tan Tui or Dragon Pond Leg named after the temple of its origin.
Find the essence of your set and that will tell you which interpretation of the name best suits your set/routine
Tan Tui
There are basically three different interpretations for ‘tan’ as it is used in Tan Tui. Each connected to a version of the forms origin.
The first, as a noun, means pond and refers to the place of its origins - a monastery near Shaolin Si called Long Tan Si and connects the form to monk Hsuan Kung. The second as a verb meaning to snap, This version is advocated by Islamic practitioners and is connected to Kun Lun. Kun Lun was a character in a story written by Tuan Cheng Shih. A similar story was also written by Deng Yen Chi entitled Mo Kun Lun Chuan. In this story Kun Lun (Blackamoor) was a pork butcher. Hardly a Moslem in this case :-)))) The third version (supported by the Shaolin tradition I practice), Tan is a Chinese surname and the set was propagated by a Shaolin master named Tan Xing.
r.(shaolin)
tan tui-
it means “springing (rebounding) leg”
tan also means “deep water” but more like a lake and less like a pond.
tan tui in terms of kungfu set, when searched in pin yin turned up the attached.
cheers
I think you’ve got the wrong Chinese character
for the pinyin ‘tan’ when it is used in reference to the Ten Routine Spring Leg.
Although the correct character referes to springing, it does not suggest rebounding but flicking or shooting as with a catapult.
When the character ‘tan’, referring to beach or sand, is used the reference is to Lung Tan Si (monastery) located in Honan province. This monastery’s name derives from the small lake or pond called Lung Tan that is in its vicinity.
r.
rik,
i got the only one out of 7 versions of the character “tan” that made any sense.
it is the same tan as in
tanxing - flexibility
or tanhuang - rebounding
but i do understand the meaning in relation to water. however, it is not “pond”.
I originally posted that I had though it was “seeking”, but i was wrong and found out that it is literally “springing leg”
tantui is mandarin whereas the cantonese, is more sounding like “tomtoy”. Anyway, it is difficult to find a good cantonese dictionary that is standardized, and so, pinyin will have to do and mandarin will have to suffice. 
the rest of the iterations of “tan” make no sense in the dictionary and a lot have references to “hand” and “tank” as in battle tanks “tan ke” (nasty those phonetics again) and surprisingly enough, many of the other idoegram combos that use tan generally come out in the form of “greed and want” I hardly think those are related to the form in any of it’s iterations.
anyway, there is a great resource online for finding pretty much any word or word combo from english to chinese.
Go to http://www.zhongwen.com
cheers
Hi Rik.
Not being a native chinese speaker and quite admittedly being a beginner in both mandarin and cantonese, i wouldn’t be aware that a site was with or without errors.
Zhongwen is a transliteration site more than a translation site, so I wouldn’t say it was rife with error. But I also know enough that it would be unwise to say it was without error entirely.
Between that and my books and language tapes, I would still have to go with “springing leg” for the literal translation of Tan tui.
cheers
Kung luk, my interest in this has more to do with form’s history.
I would be interested in Northernshaolin’s thoughts on this and have him correct me on the Jingwu version.
From what I understand the Shanghai Jingwu’s Tantui was called Long Tan Tui Shi Er Lu. Their story/history of the the form goes goes something like this. A monk named Hsuan Kung who was a resident of Lung Tan Monastery located in Shantung province, formulated this 12 set exercise. According to this tradition, monk Hsuan Kung had studied the martial arts at Shaolin Monastery. This is why the Jingwu story connects the form to Shaolin. According to Dr. Hu, formerly of Standford University, no such monastery has been found in Shantung. He does says however, there is a Lung Tan Monastery in Honan province.
The association I am apart of operated in Shanghai during the same time period as the Jingwu (early 1900’s) also practiced a 12 section Tan Tui. Their history of the set goes something like this:
A 10 section set was developed sometime during the 1700’s (Qing Dynasty) by a lay student who at one time had studied at Shaolin monastery. Eventually this form was reintroduced to Shaolin and the monks there made certain changes to the form, added two sections and named the set after the person that originally developed it.
r.
Hey Rik.
I have been of the understanding that Tan Tui is a Chinese muslim Kungfu set.
Not sure if it is related to Cha, but it certainly fits the look and feel of both Cha and BSL.
I had not heard of it being from either a taoist or buddhist temple but rather that it was a Hui muslim military kungfu set.
I was also of the understanding that it was Ku yu-cheong who brought the ten road tan tui into the prelim sets of North Shaolin Kungfu.
I had not been aware of the other stories you have here.
Interesting. Thanks.
Cheers
Kung Lek,
It is unfortunately that the most popular belief is the Chinese Muslims developed Tan T’ui and really it is a mis-conception in the western world.
r. is correct in his version of Tan T’ui’s history. This is what I’ve read in the old Chinese martial arts documents and was told by the many ‘Old Dragons’ who have since passed away.
Chinese Muslim like to take credit for it but they only were only care-takers of the style in the 1700’s until its popularity grew again and became intergrated into many Northern styles as part of their curriculum.
It was not Kuo Yu Chang who brought Tan Tui to BSL’s curriculum. His father first taught it to him but failed to finish teaching more BSL because of his untimely death. KYC’s second teacher taught Tan T’ui to him again before teaching him BSL. So Tan T’ui was already part of the BSL’s curriculum in the late 1800’s.
Tan T’ui is not related to Ch’a style at all. However, like many Northern styles, Ch’a style intergrated not only Tan T’ui, but also some of sets from Pao Chuan and Hua Chuan into their curriculum in the late 1700’s.
…
Kung Lek wrote:
I have been of the understanding that Tan Tui is a Chinese muslim Kungfu set.Not sure if it is related to Cha, but it certainly fits the look and feel of both Cha and BSL.I had not heard of it being from either a taoist or buddhist temple but rather that it was a Hui muslim military kungfu set..
…
As per my earlier post, the 10 section Tan Tui with the character for springing/snap/project is associated with Cha Quan and Islamic Chinese practitioners in Northwestern China where it was populular. The story of this version centers on a
Hui native who came from Xinjiang.
…
Kung Lek wrote:
I was also of the understanding that it was Ku yu-cheong who brought the ten road tan tui
into the prelim sets of North Shaolin Kungfu.
…
Again I would be interested in Northernshaolin’s
take on this, but I understand that it was Chao Lien-ho and his younger brother Chao Lien-cheng that were the main advocates for this set in Jingwu. In fact it was Chao Lien-ho wrote the first book on the 12 section version. This version is connected to Long Tan Si
r.
r.
Your right again on Chao Lin Ho and his brother about Tan T’ui.. In fact they are credited as to be the first ones to bring Tan T’ui to the open public with the publishing of the 12 row Tan T’ui book.
Another word about Ch’a and Muslims, is that Chinese Muslims are a regarded as a minority in China and as part of their identity and contribution to the society, they encouraged the belief that they contributed something to the country’s history.
Kung Lek,
I just open your attachment on the characters for Tan T’ui and r. is correct in say you do have the wrong Chinese characters.
Interesting stuff guys thanks.
Northernshaolin, after rik referred to you, i went to your site to see what you had there regarding tan tui.
It is mentioned as part of curriculum (12 road) but there isn’t the history of it there. Is there?
I am interested in what you say about how the Muslim kungfu was caretaker of the set for a period. i madethe reference to cha purely from external look and similarity in cha style motion and that which we find in tan tui (10 road). I am looking at Cha book now and I still see many of the motions from tan tui in the style throughout many of it’s sets.
Rik-
When you say Honan province, do you mean hunan or henan? some people call one or the other honan. Specifically I am asking if it is same province as Shaolin si is located? Or is it the other?
It is difficult to discern which temples existed and didn’t exist even today. What with the Chinese civilization being the oldest continuous unbroken civilization on earth, there is quite a lot of revisionism going on with some of teh deatils in regards to historical facts. I think that will always be a bump in trying to figure out the facts about a great deal of things.
NS-
How did the muslim peoples of north western china become caretakers of Tan tui and become associated with its development so strongly?
Thanks to both
cheers
also thanks for clearing up about KYC’s teachers of the set.
…
Kung Lek wrote:
When you say Honan province, do you mean hunan or henan? some people call one or the other honan. Specifically I am asking if it is same province as Shaolin si is located? Or is it the other?
…
Yes I am referring to Henan the province were
Shaolin Si stands.
r.
Kung Lek,
Similar moves will be found between Tan T’ui and Ch’a as well as the other northern styles like Hua and Wah. They share the same principles except are expressed differently which gives them their unique flavor.
Well there are many stories of how Tan T’ui originated but they all share a common theme that the style was not developed by Muslims nor was it created at Shaolin. However Tan T’ui made its way to Shaolin Si and then left the Shaolin Si some years later. As we all know Shaolin Si was a depository of various styles through time and different styles came and some left their footprint at the Shaolin while other styles came and left nothing.
Tan T’ui was one of those styles that was introduced at one time and then disappeared. (No specific dates are given) We know that monks specialized in certain styles and as they left the Shaolin Si to the countryside they took their particular speciality with them. Monks actually taught their skills to the common people in exchange for food and shelter and hence this is how Muslums in the Northwestern part of China ended up as caretakers of Tan T’ui.
Ch’a style has a similar story of how soldiers of General Huo Zong Qi in the Tang Dynasty who were station in the far northern borders of China, exchanged martial knowledge with the locals (Chinese Muslims) who fell in love with this style.
Similar moves will be found between Tan T’ui and Ch’a as well as the other northern styles like Hua and Wah.
What style are you calling “Wah”?
Wah is one of the five mother northern styles;i.e., Ch’a, Hua, Pao , Hung and Wah. Some dictionaries use Hua. I use Wah (based on Wade dictionary system) to separate the two Hua.
So when you say “Hua,” you mean flower boxing, and when you say “Wah,” you mean the style founded by Hua Zongqi? Or did you mean the other way around?