Tam Tui Jut Sow PM

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Northern Praying Mantis
21

LOL

Like Meat Shake put it, where the h e l l do you start?

Most special quote: “Seeing is believing” and then trying to believe what you just saw… errr, and heard! Go check any of there school`s in the US. If you are a serious PM practitioner, need not make the visit, take the hour and get a massage.

The “bashing of Thomas” is a frequently practiced teaching tool. This is handed down from the top (grandteacher). So some teachers I knew, of course emulate the actions of the GT. In other words, ridiculing of students and instructors, an exceptable practice. Even the Shifu`s are vunerable, umm the convincing of oneself.

And no one in this style can lay a hand on TM. JMHO!

22

Hi Guys.
This guy isn’t Wah Lum. He WAS a mid-level practioner 10 years ago when he stopped studying after approx. 5 years in.( At the time he trained at my school in Concord , Mass.) Five years of study followed by approx. 10 years rest does not a good martial artist make. Sounds like he got the Respect part down well though. As it turns out, that part is in short supply throughout the CMA community. Anyway…
Try another school, where the teacher isn’t interpeting what he doesn’t understand.
Good Luck.

23

Mike J

He trained @ your school? Do you know any Pig Kung Fu? He showed us some, but didn’t really go indepth with it. To be honest, I’m kinda skeptical it exists. But, then again, theres a lot I don’t know:D

24

CaptinPickAxe wrote:
“He trained @ your school? Do you know any Pig Kung Fu?”

 . I try not to eat too much .
25

fascinating!
I enjoyed the critique of the school.
It seems to have been fairly and respectably written considering the outcome of the class.

Pig.
There is mountain pig fist.
A form of the di gong school(if I remember).
You see that was the form I was learning that caused me to pop my eardrum and get the tumor in the first place.
reason for the name is that your entire body gets filthy from practicing this type of ground boxing.
You are as dirty as a pig rolling down the mountain.

26

Michael J

Thanks for the clarification, so this guy trained in Concord? Five years of training followed by Ten years of couch potatoe, not good. As for trying another school, try out the south Tampa school. Dying to hear what an experienced MA thinks of this school.

Wooaa, a dirty pig rolling down the mountain? I`m too old for ground boxing… I think.

27

Pig Kung Fu..lol

I’ve seen it before. While watching it I thought of the old man practicing it “What is wrong with this guy?”. It’s a little to out there for my tastes, but it’s there in one form or another.

28

Ok, this one pulled me out of retirement.

No way that guy trained Wah Lum for 16 years. 16 weeks maybe. I’m almost inclined to think the whole story is a setup to ‘prove WL is no good’.

yu shan
“As for trying another school, try out the south Tampa school. Dying to hear what an experienced MA thinks of this school.”
Send them to my school. You want Wah Lum I’ll give you Wah Lum.

18elders
“good old wah lum, sorry you wasted an hour of your time,
I could’ve warned you but seeing is believing!”
I feel for ya man. Good thing Pong Lai came along because you definitely missed the boat at Wah Lum. I’m still amazed at how people can train for so long and leave so clueless.

Meat Shake, CaptinPickAxe
In his defense (which he may not deserve since he appears to be scamming) I’d say he was going easy on beginners and offering them encouragement. I do that with beginners. But say you have previous experience and it’s a different story.

By the way I have a teenager who got a brown belt in TKD. His mom verified this. He has trouble with 8 Chain Punch, Cut Eyebrow Kick, etc. I see NO previous training in him at all.

michael j
How’s it going? I think maybe this guy trained a lot of Takes One’s Dough. What do you think?

29

Check this guy out if he’s not too far. One of Wallace Cupp’s guys I believe.

http://www.jademountain.org/index.html

30

Ok, I went out and got some lunch and cooled off a little. Sorry if my post was insulting to yu shan or 18 Elders but I just don’t believe you guys are so dumb (correct me if I’m wrong) you didn’t have a clue what all those funny stances and arm movements were. I also think your WL teacher is in the “I know how to use it” category which makes those comments very insulting to him and I know that is not your intention.

The schools evaluation seemed fair and based on that info it appears the teacher is being less than honest. 5 years of WL training and 10 years of whatever doesn’t equal 15 years of WL. He doesn’t seem to know Tam Tui Jut Sow (WL) too well and since that seems to be the main style of the school I would hope he shuts down before he corrupts too many beginners plus he’s making WL look bad. Now you can see why Master Chan wants only certified teachers and only authorizes those schools to teach the system. And anybody who has trained or even seen WL would be suspicious at the high, shaky stances. 18 Elders and yu shan would have to agree that they got some solid leg strength from their WL training.

Oh well, maybe he is just nervous and never taught before. Maybe he needs time to get back into it after taking 10 years off. I just wouldn’t use him or his school as fair representation of the WL style especially since he isn’t certified or authorized to teach the system.

31

Yup its good to keep that blood sugar level. Actually I think I was pretty darned smart for getting out, but dumb for staying in this style for 11 years. But like a friend of mine has put it...The styles that we train in are often governed by our opportunities. So I went with what was available.

MC is by no means picky, Ive witnessed some individuals making the level of Shifu, that I wouldnt trust to teach 8-chain punch. Eight-chain punch teaches you how to fight against mutiple attackers. LOL, this exercise is a joke, and should not be taught.

Yea, WL does put alot of emphasis on leg strength. I found out just how valuable all this leg training got me when I discovered it doesn`t help you much when fighting an experienced Mantis fighter. (my Shrfu) Yup, leg strength right out the window, cause I had my ars handed to me. The leg strength does help with Lion Dancing.

Im sure this Shifu was intimidated by the visit of CPA & MS. We all know the sizing up of our apponent. You can tell if the dude is wired for inflicting pain. Anyway, if he was in my area, Id drop by and introduce. We should wish him the best.

HLL

Ive spent alot of time with your style, Tampa, Orlando and Boston. In no school did I ever see anyone fighting PM. All I ever saw was kickboxing, not that there is anything wrong with kb. Seen some tuff mothas kick boxing ( err not WL). I never witnessed MC teaching applications-fighting etc. Nor did any Shifu ever get this,that I ever heard of. Just ask tracy sean arthur on and on. We keep inviting you over to see how we train. I would like for you to stand in front of my Shrfu and you do your “made up” techniques. Compared to handed down treasures from our Grand Teachers, coupled with our intensity. You sir are really missing out. Yes you are a tallented Man, but brainwashed. Only the smart ones figure all this out… and leave.

32

Hahahahahahahahaha! i have to agree with yu shan on this. You keep doing elbow to toe, and i will learn kung fu! :smiley:

N02 vaporizer

33

Hua lin

i like a nice debate now and then!!

Ok, my responce on clueless.
Here is a comparison of our different teachers bio’s.

Your Master: Master Chan- Trained under wah lum’s LKS when he was 6 years old for 3 or 4 years. Then continued training with his kung fu brothers(what did they know???)

Our Master: Master Shr Zheng Zhong-
His main teacher was shifu Zhang De Kui from Qi Xia County in Shandong province who taught him Mi Men Tang Lang Quan (Secret Door Mantis Boxing). In addition to his training in Mi Men Tang Lang Quan studied other tang lang quan styles under the following masters:

  • Shifu Sun Rong Zhai from Mou Ping County (Shandong province) taught him Qi Xing Tang Lang Quan (Seven Stars Mantis Boxing) and Mi Zong Quan (Lost Track Boxing)
  • Shifu Zhu Jing Chang from Qing Dao (Shan Dong Province) taught him Qi Xing Tang Lang Quan (Seven Stars Mantis Boxing)
  • Shifu Luan Xing Fu from Qing Dao (Shan Dong Province) taught him Mei Hua Tang Lang Quan (Plumb Flower Mantis Boxing), San Hui Jiu Zhuai, Yang Qi Gong and Pai Da Fa conditioning methods.
  • Shifu Hao Geng Sheng and shifu Wang Yan Yi from Shan Dong Province taught him Qi Xing Tang Lang Quan (Seven Stars Mantis Boxing)
  • Shifu Li Hong Jie taught him Mei Hua Tang Lang Quan (Plumb Flower Mantis Boxing), Da Qiang (Big Spear), Qi Gong and Tai Ji Quan. Shifu Shi Zheng Zhong would drive his motorcycle 2 hours North every weekend to study under shifu Li Hong Jie.
  • Shifu Zhang Xiang Shan from Shan Dong Province taught him Liu He Tang Lang Quan (Six Harmonies Mantis Boxing)
  • Shifu Wei Xiao Tang from Shan Dong Province taught him Ba Bu Tang Lang Quan (Eight Steps Mantis Boxing)
  • Shifu Gao Dao Sheng taught him Chang Quan Tang Lang Quan (Long Boxing Praying Mantis).
  • Cui Song Shan, elder brother of shifu Li Hong Jie, from Ji Long (a port city that is located in north of Taiwan) taught him Mei Hua Tang Lang Quan (Plumb Flower Mantis Boxing)
  • Shifu Zhao Zhu Qi in Hong Kong in 1990, taught him Tai Ji Tang Lang Quan (Supreme Praying Mantis Boxing).

In addition to tang lang quan he studied other gong fu styles, for example when he was 10 years old he started learning from 80 years old master, shifu Chen Kai the Bai He Quan, White Crane Boxing. Shifu Shi Zheng Zhong also studied:

  • Bei Shao Lin Chang Quan (Northern Shao Lin Long Boxing) under shifu Jiang Xun Shi from Qing Dao (Shan Dong)
  • Tai Ji Quan, Xing Yi Quan and Ba Gua Zhang under shifu Zhang Shi Rong from Hebei Province
  • Bei Pai Luo Han Quan, (Northern School of Luo Han Boxing) under shifu Gong Wen Dou; and
  • Chang Quan (Long Boxing) and San Da exercises under shifu Wang Jue Zhen from Si Chuan.
    Shifu Shi Zheng Zong has original notes written shifu Li Kun Shan as well as his medal that shifu Li won in the spear competion in 1933.
    Shifu Shi Zheng Zong is renowned in Taiwan for his extensive knowledge on the history, theory, and application of Tang Lang Quan. He prepared a study of tang lang quan and make some adjustments and revisions, worked on tang lang quan body exercise training method and unified the applications and the use of the techniques. His favorite forms are Mei Hua Tang Lang Zhai Yao Route 2 and Mi Men Tang Lang Lan Jie.
    Shifu Shi Zheng Zong graduated from the Taiwan Police Academy and later served with the Taiwan police force for several years.
    He is quite active within the Kuoshu Association and has been sent several times overseas as delegate and head coach of the Chinese Taipei wushu team from 1990 to 1998.

Lets take a poll: who would you rather train with and who do you think has more kung fu knowledge?

Myself and Yu spent over 10 years each in WL, so we have that to compare to Pong lai. You have no experience in Pong lai so how can you compare your training to ours?

One of my WL kung fu brothers has been in WL for 13 years, he met Master Shr and trained with him for a weekend, he said he learned more in one weekend with master shr than he has in 13 years of WL!

I know many wah lum sifus, the don’t learn crap except form after form.
I know you think your supposed to dream up the drills and applications. If that is so why pay master chan to learn a form? you would save more money buying tae bo tapes and dreaming stuff up.
You guys are missing out on so much stuff it isn’t funny.
Every sport has a coach or trainer, they teach the person the execution and body mechanics or techniques of their sport, they dont say go dream it up yourself.
Imagine our air force telling our pilots, “here is your fighter jet, turn it on and knock yourself out”
They are taught the ins and outs of the jet, what it can do, how to do it. theory in dog fights etc.

I have taken many a wah lum seminar, only form after form, we never learned a drill, application or anything. Never made any contact with each other at all.
Now they scam you by having to go on a cruise booked by MC’s wife’s travel agency to go to a seminar and learn another form. Or do their sifu testing at a resort in tampa, what a scam.
I think i would rather do my testing at a kung fu school or better yet the Wah lum temple. Not a hotel resort.

Your good friend MS was at the temple for many years, he agrees with us abouth the training, we get so many PM from ex wah lum students who left on their own(no grudge against wl) and say the didn’t learn anything, just forms.

You all think if you stay in wah lum long enough he will teach you guys the secret wah lum techniques, yes, they are so secret NOBODY knows them!

How long have you been there? 12 years of support to wah lum yet they can’t even send someone over to help you out in a demo, or even come visit your school?

We have a student who trained wah lum in gainesville(he lives there), he would rather drive 3 hours(one way) to Pong lai and train with us. Why would anyone do that? Think about it.

It is like being in a bad relationship, you know it sucks but don’t get out of it because you feel like you spent so much time in it.

Master Shr will be here in the beginning of the year, i suggest coming to see him(if Wah lum allows it). Even if you can’t do a seminar with him, come talk to him.
As far as i remember we have soldiers dying for our freedom but you guys can’t do what you want. Very odd?

I like you and have nothing agains you personally HL, and we have known each othere for a long time. I just hate to see people waste their time and get the shaft in WL when they have a good interest in kung fu.

But if you are happy with what you are doing that is great.

Have a nice Thanksgiving and i hope your school is doing well.

34

Hey boys,

To my new-to-this-forum viewpoint, you guys are making a classic ‘apples to oranges’ comparison that is inherently flawed.

From what I know of the Pong Lai style it relies on extensive ling form training to develop the classic CMA attributes in their practitioners. I hope I’m right on that. It’s an ‘apple’.

Wah Lum goes about it a more solitary way, much less reliance on the ‘ling’ side to develop the attributes. That doesn’t mean they do not develop, but certainly in a different ‘style’. It’s an ‘orange’.

But that is supposed to be the beauty of the CMA, isn’t it? Many different styles that diverge at the beginning and middle, only to converge again at the end. Only thing is, one can’t rush to ‘get’ there. Otherwise you just end up looking foolish,… later.

18 Elders:
Your Master’s bio looks fantastic,.. but now he has students in the U.S… like Master Chan, who has had American students for close to 40 years. Some who even choose to talk of him and his style like you do. Western students are funny that way… will Pong Lai be spared the onslaught of the disconnected Western mindset and its need to create diversion before understanding? Just read the Forum in 40 years, or better yet…
don’t.

35

So Wah Lum is a “closed door” school when it comes to showing techniques? If this is true, then that may explain why I didn’t see anything I haven’t seen before when visiting the school. I’m still wet behind the ears when it comes to Mantis, but I’m learning.
So, please, correct me if I’m wrong.

The TTJS shifu is having a belt exam on monday. His son will be testing. This seems like a good time to get a grasp on what kind of shifu he is. Its a shame that it falls on Shuai Chiao night, so I won’t be making it.

36

glad to see you still have your edge yu shan. just kidding. never lost it that i know of. 18elders–awesome to post GM Shr’s bio. he’s got a lot of experience we can all benifit from. definately going to be in tampa when he comes over.
i never studied wah lum but i’ve heard enough to know i don’t want to.(i.e. apps) really though, how do you learn to fight without being shown and then training apps? the ling side was developed to preserve the appropriate counter to the bung side and after you’ve trained the technique multiple times you begin to understand the mechanics of different attacks and counters and then you begin to see the bigger picture. (not all, just more) also training the ling side with different people is very important to learn as many people’s “flavors” as you can. i don’t just mean in forms, but all the drills. i train a good bit alone, but without the two-person stuff my progress would be way slower and skills way lower.

37

Touche! Got me on a few points.
Debating mode: ON.
Hmmmm, I never learned the “The “bashing of Thomas” is a frequently practiced teaching tool” part. If that’s how you taught it seems to be your problem. Kind of like blaming child abuse or molestation on being abused or molested when you were young. Doesn’t fly. It doesn’t matter whether MC or any WL Sifus “bash” their students or anyone else I still do what is right and work hard to keep myself from doing what is wrong (like bashing students). But then I believe in always trying to better myself as a person and not just trying to be a better martial artist.

“Eight-chain punch teaches you how to fight against mutiple attackers”
Hmmmm, wrong. Guess you really didn’t learn.

“I found out just how valuable all this leg training got me when I discovered it doesn`t help you much when fighting an experienced Mantis fighter.”
The leg strength is needed to apply the WL techniques (some are pretty tough) but since you didn’t know how to apply them I’m not surprised you landed on your arse. Extensive leg strength is not a neccessity for some styles. Apparently Pong Lai doesn’t rely on leg strength but WL does. Back to apples and oranges.

"I never witnessed MC teaching applications-fighting etc. "
Doesn’t mean he doesn’t do it, just that you personally haven’t seen it. I have.

“We keep inviting you over to see how we train.”
I have seen Pong Lai training and in competition (but not fighting or sparring). You guys do elbow to toe, right, but with you other arm high in the air (mantiskilla take note of this).

"I would like for you to stand in front of my Shrfu and you do your “made up” techniques. "
I’m flattered you think I’m such a prodigy that I could “make up” techniques. I’ve made up some show forms and 2-man drills but all the techniques come from WL and I apply them according to what I’ve been taught or discovered on my own.

“Only the smart ones figure all this out… and leave.”
But they couldn’t figure out 1st Form? I don’t get it.

“You have no experience in Pong lai so how can you compare your training to ours?”
I can’t and I don’t. I thought I commented on the TTJS teacher and my frustration with you obsession for WL bashing. Oops, there’s that word again. Learn that from your WL teacher?

“One of my WL kung fu brothers has been in WL for 13 years, he met Master Shr and trained with him for a weekend, he said he learned more in one weekend with master shr than he has in 13 years of WL!”
If you have a good product then sell the product on it’s own merits. Don’t knock someone else down just to make yourself look taller.

“you would save more money buying tae bo tapes and dreaming stuff up.”
Tae Bo is devoid of apps, WL isn’t.

“You guys are missing out on so much stuff it isn’t funny.”
I’m also missing out on good Wing Chun, Choy Lay Fut, Hung Gar, Shaolin, etc. Sorry, I can only train one system at a time.

“Your good friend MS was at the temple for many years, he agrees with us abouth the training, we get so many PM from ex wah lum students who left on their own(no grudge against wl) and say the didn’t learn anything, just forms.”

And his current training consists of …
Sorry MS and others, couldn’t let this one go.

“You all think if you stay in wah lum long enough he will teach you guys the secret wah lum techniques”
Hmmm, wrong. Speak for yourself. I’ve said publicly that if any secrets exist I’ll never get them. But I still think the best stuff is at the higher levels, proven by the curriculum. I’m not really waiting for anything.

“As far as i remember we have soldiers dying for our freedom but you guys can’t do what you want.”
Not entirely true. But why do you think it’s ok to treat your Sifu differently than you treat your parents? Is your Sifu in charge of your training or are you? Do you pick and choose what you learn?

michael j,
Very well said.

38

re

Hua lin, your responce to Yu Shan about 8 chain punch:

“Eight-chain punch teaches you how to fight against mutiple attackers”
Hmmmm, wrong. Guess you really didn’t learn".

Now this is a direct quote from the wah lum handbook for testing requirements.
Question #14: what does 8 chain punch teach you?
Answer-proper breathing, fast direction changing and BLOCKING AND STRIKING MULTIPLE OPPONENTS.

I guess Yu Shan did learn!! So how is he wrong if that is what it says in the handbook answer for testing questions?

Leg strength: john was doing some conditioning drills with a wah lum guy who had trained about 5 years in wl, he couldn’t shake johns stance and the next thing you saw was the wl’er flying through the air. I would say john’s leg strength is good, i know because i have felt the pain. He also does tam tuis on my shoulders during lion dancing, yes with the lion on him and standing on my shoulders on one leg.

Michael J.- i hope i am around in 40 years.
definite WL attitude, don’t read the forum, don’t compete in tournaments , don’t do masters demos.
Why is it WL is always trying to keep us out of everything?
Yes we are not allowed in tournaments or demos, or MC will not support them with WL students.
Why do you guys say learn friendship and fellowship at the end of every class but don’t mean it?

If you are ever in tampa please come in and train with us.

39

Hua Lin,
guess you took me a little too literally. i dont know how pong lai trains, but i do know wah lum. i did learn some very good self-discipline, and i did get into great shape, but i didnt learn kung fu. please dont give me the response that kung fu is hard work, so i learned kung fu, if i said that to my Master i would be on my butt. thats not kung fu. anyway, at least Pong Lai tells people to look around at other schools before theirs, instead, WL requires blinders and earplugs. why is that? i just know my own experience, and i still know people in WL, and they are still in that state of purgatory," maybe youll get the apps some day." whatever.:rolleyes:

AdorableBrina

40

I call shenanigans!

Sorry, 18elders and Hua Lin (much respect, sifu, nonetheless), but I cannot agree that this is a debate. This is a pi$$ing contest. There’s a difference.

I’m gonna come onto this thread and say this once, and then I’m leaving it and not posting again. It’s up to you to take my advice, or leave it.

Some Pong Lai’ers on this board have chosen to set themselves against any and all things “Wah Lum,” for reasons they have discussed above and elsewhere, ad nauseum. They regularly shout down any Wah Lum student or sifu who tries to post on this forum. Is it any wonder that WL’ers rarely post on the board anymore?

We come to KFO for the same reasons (nearly) everyone else does. We come to communicate with the martial arts and mantis communities, to find out what other folks are up to, to trade advice and give encouragement where needed. We don’t come here to fight with people from other schools, especially about pointless stuff.

Pong Lai’ers, when you participate in discussions on other forum threads, you have interesting information and contribute to informative and positive discussions on several levels. But on this thread you’ve slipped back into pointless cr@p that does nothing but diminish you, your school, and the mantis community.

Frankly, your problems with Wah Lum (on and off this forum) are problems that you created. You chose to walk that path, no one chose it for you. If it’s a difficult one for you, that’s no one else’s problem but your own.

I’m going to repeat something I said well over a year ago, something you apparently did not listen to: Forget what happened in the past, and move forward with your lives. Train hard and better yourselves and your school. Win respect by being excellent martial artists and excellent people, not by tearing others down – even people you don’t like. In a nutshell, Shut up and train.

Thank you and peace,

SaMantis