So what's the deal with Wah Lum?

[Lode_Runner]

I don’t mean to stir up trouble here, but I’m currently taking Tai Chi classes at a WL school here in Florida and I am intrigued enough by what I’ve read about Northern PM gongfu so far that I’m seriously considering enrolling once I can spare the extra time/money. However, I am curious to know what’s behind these “issues” people have with wah lum. Before I came to this forum, the only difference I was aware of was that WL emphasized kicks much more so than the other northern PM systems. I get the distinct impression that some people think that there’s more than just this, but sifting through these threads and trying to discern the “truth” is 1) taking way too much time and 2) giving me a headache.

So far I’ve come across five or so complaints:

1. it isn’t a “real” northern system. the styles are so altered that they have more in common with southern PM (or some other system) than northern PM. I take this to mean that these people view WL as being less hard than other northern systems (which, along with the “blindingly fast hook-hands” is the trademark, or so I gather)… or is it just that the forms themselves are so different?

2. some rant about a lack of sparring. I suppose I could ask my Sifu about this one, but in the mean time I’d like to know how the official WL temple method of sparring differs from other styles.

3. politics. something about the style itself being more important than the students, and something about not being allowed to go to seminars.

4. too flashy. if the school has adequite sparring, I don’t see this as much of a problem. I’ll hopefully be able to figure out what moves are effective and what moves are not and only use these flashy moves to psyche someone out (which can be a very effective strategy, btw.)

5. something about certain “secrets” not being taught. If it’s true, it sounds like a lot of BS to me.

Obviously everyone’s impression of the system is different and obviously those people who practice it are going to defend against the above comments. However – truthful or not – I doubt that there would’ve been such a ruckus if WL wasn’t different in some ways. Regardless of which style is better (which really is a pointless issue; I only care about which style is better for ME) I am interested in understanding these differences between WL and other Northern PM Styles and what other people have experienced in WL schools, both positive and negative.

Or if you want, you can just yell at me for being such a troll.

[EARTH_DRAGON]

While I am no authority on Wam Lum, I would like to adress some of your concerns from my experience in 8 step.

1. It is a northern style.

2. Sparring is not always focused on due to the traps that students fall into when trying to spar. i.e Tagging, the you got me I got you scenerio. Not fully excecuting proper techniques, false sense of timming, tae kwon do type scenerio’s to many to list,

3. politics, join the club, never been in a style or orginization that doesnt have them.

4. forms for show or for the general public are always more eye appealing then the true fighting forms. But dont mistake them for WuShu as others have said.

5. Always secrets, this is a must for any master or teacher, one must prove themselves before most higher levels techniques are taught. Just becuse you have enrolled and paid your money doenst get you into the “close door” catagory, this takes years of loyalty.

If you are learning direcly from master Chan Pui you are lucky and should remain where you are. It is not a general thing to train under a master of his caliber and you should understand that students come and go but if you stick it out for some years you will find that your perception and attitude will change…

[Lode_Runner]

I’m not learning from Pui, although I don’t live far from Orlando and the possibility of me someday moving there could definitely factor into my decision.
…
5. Secrets. Grrrr… if a form is useful to me then teach it. If I’m not ready then I’m not ready. IMO, there’s no need for secrecy at, especially if what’s being withheld is actual streetfighting applications (which was what someone else implied; I’m not saying it’s true, though.)
…

I take it from you comments that are AREN’T any major differences between WL and the other northern PM styles? So what’s the big deal, then?

[woliveri]

Earth Dragon.

I strongly dissagree with your position of #5. I’ve had too many personal experiences that contradict that statement but putting that aside you are implying that after years of loyality a student at WL will gain “indoor” status thus gaining the secret forms of WL. This is not true. The students on this board have made it clear that this is reserved for the daughter of MC. This is fine and ok. No problem here. Just to let Load Runner know up front that this will not happen.

[EARTH_DRAGON]

Lode Runner, woliveri

Again I am not speaking of WL, for I do not know about his teaching methods. I am speaking about teachers /shrfu’s in general.
My teacher has taught over 4,000 students in his time but only 13 of them have actually done what was asked of them and opened their own school to promote the system. After so many people have made promises and broken them shrfu was forced to be selective and keep the secrets to only those who warrant such information.
My shrfu has a son but unfortunatly he is not allowed to give his son the secrets and the system for the 4 generations of masters before him never had children so in 8 step this is forbidden. But ask your self this who would you give your most prize possession too??? your son/ daughter or your non related student?

You may be famous amous’s best freind, and you may sell 10,000 cookies for him each year but does that mean you should be entitled to the recipe?

[woliveri]

You may be famous amous’s best freind, and you may sell 10,000 cookies for him each year but does that mean you should be entitled to the recipe?

No, but Famous Amous should have the balls to tell his best friend up front where the chips lie so Famous Amous’s friend can make an intelligent decision about his own future. Whether he (the friend) wants to continue getting fish from FA or to seek out someone who is not afraid to teach him how to fish for himself.

[Hua_Lin_Laoshi]

Lode Runner
If you’ve been reading this forum you’ve probably seen my posts that addressed some of these issues.

1. Wah Lum Kung Fu is based on Northern Praying Mantis. Specifically Jut Sow Mantis. Wah Lum is a hybrid just like Wong Long’s original Mantis was a hybrid composed of other styles. There is no Southern Mantis in Wah Lum. The Southern reference is due to the fact that we learn some Southern forms although not Southern Mantis forms. Lee Kwan Shan took the Jut Sow Mantis he learned in the north and combined it with his family style of Tam Tui. After creating Wah Lum it was primarily passed on in the south where he lived and taught. This was Master Chan’s village and since he is the current GrandMaster he decided to add some of his family style (Mok Gar) to the system. There is ample opportunity to learn outside the curriculum. Since being with Wah Lum I’ve learned Plum Flower Mantis, Yin Chin, Choy Li Fut, Shaolin, Mok Gar and others.

2. I don’t know what the other Wah Lum Sifus do at their schools but the Temple has a sparring class. This class is geared towards competition as there are some students who wish to compete. Self defense is done during normal class.

3. There’s always politics. You can play or ignore, your choice. Master Chan restricts his students to approved seminars only. Again, your choice. I have seen students that also trained at other schools while training at the Temple. Master Chan is old fashioned and he believes you should only have one Sifu. He expects loyalty and if you aren’t then you probably won’t go very far in Wah Lum.

4. Some people feel Wah Lum forms lack applications. This is not true. Some of that comes from our show forms which are designed to showcase physical ability and for entertainment. Curriculum forms get down to business.

5. Secrets. Yes. You only learn what your mature (and sometimes loyal) enough to handle. I would never teach a beginner a potentially deadly move. It’s just like handing a loaded gun to someone who never touched a gun before.

I believe most of the other Sifus would agree with what I said. Feel free to e-mail me or stop by the Temple and talk anytime.

[flem]

politics

of course there are politics in any system, but the bottom line is their effectiveness in dealing with the well being of the students, in WL’s case they are concerned with the well being of the style. this is necessary and good only if what the system is about is for the betterment of people. if WL used the words on the alter as a guide, then it would all be good. but i do not believe that to be the case. the number one priority seems to be numbers, everything revolves around class size, even the curriculum and it’s difficulty level. to me, if someone can’t do a move then they stop learning at that point until they can. in the real world, if someone cannot pass general math they stay there until they can, they’re not given a way around it and pushed on to algebra and so on- the whole emphasis on large numbers weakens the style, sure one can theorize that the percentages of good students will remain the same so that a larger number means more good students overall, but in the mean time satellite schools that are judged simlarly, get the perks simply if they have a large number of students. to me quality is more important than quantity, and concentrating on one negates the other..
so… if i were to do it all again, WL i mean, i would go there to train, never aspiring to teach, or anything else, and go home- stay completely out of the “family”

[woliveri]

perfect response, flem. But would you not have access to certain forms or levels if you didn’t go into the sifu program? That is, can a student who doesn’t want to be a sifu reach the same level of training as the student who does go into the sifu program?

[NorthernMantis]

Yes they can.

[EARTH_DRAGON]

Woliveri

The famous amous thing was just an example but unfortunaly it is very true.
You would think that people should behave and treat people the way that they want to be treated but that is quite rare. Fact is the only way to the secrets is the tradtional way that has been passed down for centuries, Hardly ever exceptions.
Just becuse people in todays world are used to paying for a service and getting what they paid for, this is not true at all in the MA , you can pay thousands and not learn anything worthwhile sad but true.
On the other hand you can meet someone that will trust you totally and give you everything and expect nothing in return.

But when you have information that is pricless what would be the reasons that you would give it away? money? fame? generosity? what?

[woliveri]

NM wrote: Yes they can.

I guess the million dollar question now is why become a sifu? What’s the incentive? Very few satellite schools that I know of can operate full time and support the sifu financially. So it seems like a lot of work on the Sifu with little opportunity for making a buck.

[Joe_Mantis]

Lode Runner,

Who’s your Sifu?

[isol8d]

Wolveri-

Should teaching be about making money? If I understand the intent of the WL philosophy, teaching should be about preserving the CMA in todays world. I’m not at a point in my training where learning secrets are even an issue, so I might have a birds eye view on this.

If you had seen the Chinese Cultural Awareness Month & New Years parade through downtown Orlando, you might wonder how someone could not afford to make a living as a teacher. From my perspective, it was a Wah Lum parade with one or two other orginizations thrown in. I don’t think the Wushu guys were in the parade, but they were at the ampitheatre afterwords, I guess to balance out the 4+ WL Schools there.

Lode Runner -

If you’re already taking Tai Chi at some school, why not just look at the schedule and watch a class or two?

[woliveri]

isol8d

Should teaching be about making money?

I don’t know, just how much do you pay per month for your kung fu education?

That’s so funny… sorry. So the main office works to pull in the bucks but the sifu’s work to preserve WL?

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by woliveri
[B]NM wrote: Yes they can.

I guess the million dollar question now is why become a sifu? What’s the incentive? Very few satellite schools that I know of can operate full time and support the sifu financially. So it seems like a lot of work on the Sifu with little opportunity for making a buck. [/B]

Well to answer both of your questions it depends on the individual.Everyone has their own reasons but a good reason,IMHO,would be to promote kung fu and help other be more healthy and/or teach them self defence.Remember the student should benifit from the teacher not the other way around.I think helping others through kung fu is a noble idea.

It’s very true about keeping a school open.I’ve heard personally from many people to rethink if I should ever want to open up a school.The truth is I’m happy just being a student.Many students come and go and there’s no way to garantee that the student will keep interersted.

[isol8d]

Fair enough. How much do I spend? Too much it seems, between ripping my pants, grinding out my shoes, buying weapons, jow, etc… Not even counting the tuition.

But if you have a good accountant, and you pay enough in taxes, you can figure out how to not pay for any of it

I know I could pay less or more for martial arts training in Orlando. There are a lot of schools, and we even have one the nations premier health clubs (RDV Sportscenter). Scaling against the price of a health club, I don’t pay a lot. Scaling against the TKD class at the rec center by my house, I pay a lot. It’s all perspective.

Then again, I can’t imagine going to my sifu and saying “I don’t think you should make a living doing this, so I’m not going to pay as much.”

[Lode_Runner]

Earth Dragon:
>You may be famous amous’s best freind, and you may sell 10,000 cookies for him each year but does that mean you should be entitled to the recipe?<

Hua Lin Laoshi:
>5. Secrets. Yes. You only learn what your mature (and sometimes loyal) enough to handle. I would never teach a beginner a potentially deadly move. It’s just like handing a loaded gun to someone who never touched a gun before.<

Neither of these analogies is applicable. I’m not talking about giving them the recipe or the gun; I’m talking about giving them the knowledge of the EXISTENCE of the recipe or gun. Of course I’m not advocating that you teach newbies advanced forms right away… I’m just saying that as a newbie, I want to know what I will eventually be learning.

However, woliveri says that this isn’t applicable to WL except for Pui’s daughter (lucky girl), so if no one cares to disagree with this statement I suppose we can let it drop.

>Lee Kwan Shan took the Jut Sow Mantis he learned in the north and combined it with his family style of Tam Tui. After creating Wah Lum it was primarily passed on in the south where he lived and taught. This was Master Chan’s village and since he is the current GrandMaster he decided to add some of his family style (Mok Gar) to the system. <

But – assuming there are any – what are the fundamental differences? Does the introduction of these styles make wah lum harder or softer or more internal or more external or more circular or more linear? Does it make it more or less effective at short range vs. long range? etc.

>Lode Runner,

Who’s your Sifu?<

Harry Lo. His website: http://www.wahlumkungfu.com/

I haven’t researched his lineage, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that he is a 6th level dan.

Flem:

That is a very big concern you bring up, but my experiences tend to show otherwise. Considering the size of the classes, I’ve received a good amount of personal attention both from the Si-Jze’s/Si-Hings and the Sifu.

Based on the replies so far, it seems to me like the only thing I should worry about is the political BS. I’m sorry, but if you ARE doing this to make money then you should treat it as such; a service rendered. What I do outside of class should be my own business and I certainly would not want to tie myself down to a single style if I do find out that I have a passion for MA. I always endevor to be respectful but my motives will always be cynical; I’m doing all of this for ME, not because I want to eventually become a Sifu myself and open up a school to continue the tradition. If I DID open up a school (hah) I would probably modify the style just as Pui did; I would want to teach based on what I have learned personally not copy what other people have merely told me is correct… but if I cannot study other styles then I have no method of judging other styles so I would have no recourse but to “continue the tradition” without making any actual contribution.

And I have a major problem with that.

[EARTH_DRAGON]

Lode runner

You can what will eventually be taught but whats the rush?
I have many students that come in and ask questions about what lies ahead in 4 or 5 years and my reply is I will teach you in 4 or 5 years… no reason to cloud their heads with things that they may never learn.
I have found that the more they think about what they will learn instead of what they should be concentrating on “The basics” the sooner they quit for they do not instill the patients that is neccesary to reach anything beyond begginer status.

And you want to know why secrets are held? you have answered your own question…

As for Chan Pui’s daughter inheriting the system you are correct… No non- chinese will ever inherit a chinese system… well I shoulnt say never but chances are slim to none…

P.S (dan) pronunced (don) refers to japanese degrees of ranking not chinese…

[system]

Being the senior instructor for Wah Lum of Miami, I have been around since 1987 training under Sifu Shelly Huang. I think I’ve seen enough to put in my 2 cents…

Yes Wah Lum does have alot more kicks than other Northern Mantis systems.

Wah Lum does not have as many hooks and claws in the forms as say…Tai Chi Mantis or 7 Star, therefore it appears to be less Northern than other systems.

Also having forms in the system that have nothing to do with Mantis, (Leopard for example) make it seem like it is a mish mash of a bunch of things. Not true.

There no more politics in Wah Lum than in any other system. Of course everybody wants to be the “numba one guy”. So there will always be a “differance of opinion” between some students.

I have been to the Temple many times and have learned quite a few forms in Orlando. Four of them personally from Master Chan.
Everybody in Orlando has been nice and are open to other students from out of town. I can’t answer on the “closed door” stuff. Certain people have probally learned forms others haven’t because they have the skill or “time in the system” to learn it. Why teach someone advanced forms who have not reached that level of skill?. Would you let someone perform open heart surgery on you after only 1-2 years of training???. No of course not they haven’t reached that level of skill or knowledge yet.

People who compete in Wah Lum do change their forms for competition, but is not mandatory as far as I know. I always competed with my forms unaltered. Flash will always win over technical skill. Especially in Mc Dojo tournaments.

Sparring is done at our school but on a limited basis because of where we train. I can’t speak for the Temple. But I do believe they spar on Thursday nights if I’m not mistaken.

As far as seminars go the only time you can’t go is if you didn’t pay. I’ve never had a problem.

Thats what I have noticed over the years…I am not an expert on what goes on up in Orlando, so you’ll have to talk to someone who trains there. If anybody ever comes to Miami, you are more than welcome to train with us.