So what's the deal with Wah Lum?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Northern Praying Mantis
21

ED, you’re the voice of reason. :slight_smile:

Many people in martial arts want to learn the “secrets” of their chosen style. Fact is, that’s up to the discretion of the instructor. It’s not just a Wah Lum thing, as ED pointed out. Frankly, when I started Wah Lum, nobody ever told me I was going to learn special secrets.

Advanced styles – I’m not worried about being taught “everything” when I learn a form. I learn the applications that the instructor feels I would understand, and I practice the form to see what I can do with it. As I increase in experience/ability, my understanding of the form increases. For example, in another thread there was a discussion of a form called Little Open Gate, which is taught to beginners. For one move, the more experienced MAs here (both current and ex-WL’ers) described many more applications than I had visualized/been taught. Meaning that this short beginner’s form has advanced applications.

As a writer, the analogy I can give here is that grade schoolers don’t write novels. Sure, their spelling is good and they can put together a sentence, but it’s going to take several years of training before they can write “War and Peace.”

Politics – well, politics is politics. Get more than 10 people together and you’ve got politics. The temple has a lot of students and Master Chan is here, and there is politics on every level.

Not studying other styles – Sifu is very traditional, and he wants to run his school as traditionally as possible. This was a big thing back in his day, and at many CMA schools it still is. As a student, just be honest with your sifu; if you have concerns or Wah Lum is not working for you, talk to your sifu. Most of the people I started WL with who eventually left never talked to their instructor about what was bugging them. The ones who did, the instructor made every effort to help them out, and only one guy who did this has left (but he was unhappy because we weren’t learning “how to kill people”).

Lode Runner, if you decide to take WL, focus on what you came for: learning kung fu. Practice hard, listen to your sifu, don’t worry about the politics. Enjoy working out and learning about Chinese culture.

If you’re ever at the temple, come over and say hi.

Sam Mazzotta

P.S. – Gung Hay Fat Choy, everyone!! :slight_smile:

22

Lode Runner
I guess everyone read more into question 5 than you intended. Just take a look at the student handbook for a list of forms on each level. Ask one of the students to show you a few forms. You could also buy one or two of the anniversary videos. Some of the videos have advanced forms on them. Once you get up around 7th level your training becomes a little more customized according to your abilities.

23

Lode Runner

At Harry’s school you’ll probably just be learning forms and lion dance. He doesn’t do much if any applications. Look at your hand book and that’s about it.

If you want to know what you’ll be learning, just look at the Sifu’s who have “paid their dues” and see what they have learned. A lot of those guys have been in the system for a long time and still are only learning at seminars.

24

secrets?

i do not believe there are secrets in WL or in any other style for that matter. of course there is advanced material, and in WL i think it can be reached by anyone. the whole thing is understanding how all the movements integrate into one another. once this is found then learning so called secrets only adds to ones ability and understanding.

lode runner
because of the above, i am saying that your concerns in learning kung fu should not be concerned with authenticity or even whether you will be limited in your learning, i do not think they play a part. what i am saying is that yours and everyone else involved in WL or any style for that matter, should be concerned with what the arts promote. are they concerned with the well being of the student- beyond making sure that they get enough attention so that they keep paying, are they concerned with the integrity of the style, and by this i mean, are the students(advanced also) taught the importance of humility, respect, and all the other words associated with the definition of a true martial artist? my understanding is that because of my previous post about numbers, that many faults go unchecked, and this is a shame.
your belief in personal expression has little place in WL.

25

EARTH DRAGON:

>P.S (dan) pronunced (don) refers to japanese degrees of ranking not chinese…<

Oh. ****, I need to stop doing so much research; I’m confusing myself…

Well I think I recall reading that he’s a 6th level somethingoranother, then. Is that helpful? :o

Hua Lin Laoshi:

>I guess everyone read more into question 5 than you intended. Just take a look at the student handbook for a list of forms on each level…<

But that isn’t “secret.” “Secret” does not equal “advanced.” You wouldn’t call quantum physics secret… but nonetheless you can’t take it or even understand most of it unless you’ve taken a bevy of previous classes.

To me, “secret” implies that you don’t learn the existence of this thing until it’s time for you to learn it. I am against this style of teaching. To use Samantis’s analogy, it’s like the difference between reading war and peace and then years later, after you’ve grown into a full-fledged writer, writing a similar novel vs. reading only books that are on par with your writing skill and having to work your way up to the privilege of even being allowed to read War and Peace.

IMO, gazing upon greatness nourishes both your motivation and your sense of perspective.

26

Joe Mantis:

>At Harry’s school you’ll probably just be learning forms and lion dance. He doesn’t do much if any applications. Look at your hand book and that’s about it.<

“Additional opportunity for “die-hard” students who are interested in extra-cirriculum training, such as tournament competition, martial arts demonstration team, Lion Dance team, social get together, or just want more training.”

Correct me if I’m wrong, but to successfully compete in a tournament (and not look like a fool) you need to be taught application, right?

You know, there really needs to be a feedback system of sorts. Like someone who reviews MA schools. I really don’t know who to believe.

27

You know, there really needs to be a feedback system of sorts. Like someone who reviews MA schools. I really don’t know who to believe.

Well these responses should be enough to give you awareness of some of our opinions. Most, if not all, come from personal experience. My suggestion is if your comfortable with what’s been said then visit the school and make your choice. Most of us didn’t have the opportunity to review such comments during our time. Still, for me, WL was a good experience. One that I’ll always remember but there may be a time when you’ll want to expand your knowledge where the temple cannot (or will not) provide. It’ll be then you’ll need to move on to satisfy your thirst for knowledge.

Secrets: I agree with flem that there are no secrets, just other forms that provide a difference of potential between the master and the student. However, in order for me to understand this I had to go outside the temple and study from a couple of different teachers which gave me a different prespective (internal ma, TCM, qi gong). So the information is out there but not taught by the temple.

28

Lode Runner

The tournament training is basically on forms. Even at that there is not much emphasis on doing difficult “flashy” techniques which the audience and judges love.
Don’t count on him teaching you much sparring techniques either.

Basically in a sparring situation one can get by with “kickboxing.”

You will not learn how to use your kung fu techniques while sparring. And I do believe that one studies/pracitices/trains so that they can use it.

Look at the school. How many students are sparring competitivly?
How many are competing at the advanced level in forms competition and doing well?
You’ll get a decent foundation, but for more advanced MA training (especially with applications) you will need to go elsewhere.

Check your area for other kung fu schools. I think there is a school in Merritt Island and one in Titusville. It may even beneficial just to talk with the Sifu’s and watch a class just so you can make a comparison, even if you don’t plan on joining that school.

I agree that you should know what you are getting into and commend your efforts to make an informed choice about training at a particular school.

29

lode runner

Go to other mantis schools and take some classes and compare.

Ask if this is how their curriculum is taught?
This is information provided by Tainan mantis(pong lai’s kung fu brother)

Also, before I mention the method you should know that this was at one time one of the inner door secret methods that outer door students didn’t learn. Nor did they know of its existance.
To this day you will see that many schools have partner forms without even knowing that they are doing the solo version of a partner form.

The first mention I have come across of a variant of this method is from 2 books in the Ming dynasty which explain spear fighting and stick fighting. These books have yet to be translated into English.(details in TJPM forum under weapons folder)

I have also seen it explained for straight sword fighting in a method identical to PM.

The first public mention of the method in PM comes from WHF. My teacher has the same four steps he listed with an additional step at the end.

1.Lien
-solo form practice

2.ling
-solo form becomes a two man form

3.pi
-two man form becomes many small drills that each go like a merry-go-round.

4.tsai
-students learn how the drills are recombined in a different order.

5.gan

  • a step unique to my teacher which is fighting.
    This aspect didn’t exist with weapons as the result would be crippling or death and so was only used on the enemy.

Details:
-You know how you have to make your solo form look top notch before you learn another?
Well, the same applies to these steps. Each step must be as good looking, quick and powerful as your solo form before moving on.

-There is another method of fighting also mentioned in Wang Lang’s 18 family sonnet.
This is where one player performs the technique on the other player and is successful.
This method has been best preserved in arts like judo and shuai jiao(although my teacher also teaches it).

In this method the opponent doesn’t get to defend or defends unsuccessfully and so is thrown or locked.
The disadvantage of this method is that it would eliminate all your sparring partners very quickly if you practiced techniques like “nose break” and “groin smash” which are more suitable for the first method.

Isold 8-
The parade you mentioned, you said it should have been a wah lum parade.
You should thank pong lai for that.
We were invited to be in the parade but when master chan found out he had a fit and said if we were in it he wouldn’t be. He told the association he would bring 5 schools to it to keep us out. Pong lai had already told the association we wouldn’t be in it so master chan wouldn’t be ****ed.
So much for learn kindness , fellowship

30

Joe:

What exactly are you basing your assumptions on? Is it what you read on the website, or in your experience are all WL schools run in this manner?

31

Lode runner

quote:

[SIZE=3]If I DID open up a school (hah) I would probably modify the style just as Pui did.[/SIZE]

I assume you are serious with your questions, and not a troll, so I apologize up front with my abruptness( iam home with a pretty bad cold, so maybe iam moody). Your statement is like someone who never picked up a paint brush looking at a Rembrandt and saying" Yeh, I could do that". Its absurd. Ive seen so many people who start WL with either previous experience, or none, but think they know more than they do. You have not even taken a class, but have disected the system 25 ways. You do NOT learn MA by talking about it. YOU DO IT. Train hard for 3 or 4 years, and then come back and read some of your statements. :rolleyes:
32

9dragonshijin:

>Your statement is like someone who never picked up a paint brush looking at a Rembrandt and saying" Yeh, I could do that". Its absurd. Ive seen so many people who start WL with either previous experience, or none, but think they know more than they do. You have not even taken a class, but have disected the system 25 ways. You do NOT learn MA by talking about it. YOU DO IT. Train hard for 3 or 4 years, and then come back and read some of your statements. <

My statement is like someone saying “If I do become a great painter I want to have my own unique style; I don’t want to simply copy everything Rembrandt ever did. Thus, I would prefer it if my teacher did not ban me from studying all non-Rembrandt paintings.” I’m certainly not implying that this is easy in any way shape or form; I am simply saying what I would LIKE to do if I ever manage to achieve that level of skill.

How have I dissected the system 25 ways? I’ve merely commented on what others have told me is true. For all I know, a great deal of the art involves b*tch-slapping your opponent with a large and smelly salmon because I’ve yet to sit in on a class (I know I probably should but I want to know what it is I’m seeing before I actually go and see it.)

I know that I will not achieve a meaningful understanding of the art before I study it, but I don’t want to spend 3 or 4 years and thousands of dollars just to find out that this system is NOT what I’m looking for. Talking about it does serve a purpose; like Joe said, I just want to get a general idea about what it is that I’m getting into.

33

18elders:

>Go to other mantis schools and take some classes and compare.<

You know, you’re right. if I am really serious about it I should probably visit multiple schools and sit in on many different classes.

Now the only problem is finding the time…

>The parade you mentioned, you said it should have been a wah lum parade.
You should thank pong lai for that.
We were invited to be in the parade but when master chan found out he had a fit and said if we were in it he wouldn’t be. He told the association he would bring 5 schools to it to keep us out. Pong lai had already told the association we wouldn’t be in it so master chan wouldn’t be ****ed.
So much for learn kindness , fellowship<

****. That sounds amazingly petty of him. Before I start seriously ranting, who is “we” and why doesn’t master chan like you guys?

34

Lode Runner

It’s not an assumptions unless Harry has changed what he has been doing.

All Wah Lum schools is a pretty broad statement. But I can’t speak for all.

Why don’t you first check out Harry’s school. Then go up to Merritt Island and watch his other school and how that person teaches.
Students normally teach what and how they have been taught.
I’ll save you the trip and tell you: you won’t see any mantis applications. You might see some sparring in pads but that is just games.

you have to ask yourself a couple of questions:

  1. why do I want to train?
  2. Am I willing to invest the time to find it out.

Do you want a lot of forms and be involved in a contemporary wushu type school?

or do you want a school that trains to use the material?

good luck.
by the way, you won’t have much self expression. try repression.

35

Oh. You’ve actually been to the school? Ok…

36

lode runner

Like i said before, iam at home sick so i tend to get a little grumpy(just ask my wife). :smiley: My point is that you are not really going to get a good idea before you actually do it , or see it for that matter.( Might want to watch a class before you go creating your own style). Im not speaking of just WL, iam speaking of MA in general, any style. I did Tae Kwon do for a while before kung fu. The instructor was an excellent teacher and very good martial artist. He was old school, trained in Korea. I just did not find it interesting after a while. Do i think that the time i spent there was wasted? Of course not. I gained flexibility, endurance, and some insight into martial arts. Everyone has different preferences,and biases, no one can tell you what MA you will enjoy. WL is traditional, sifus do not decide to start changing the system at will, then it wouldn’t be traditional would it? The fact that you have not even seen a class, says something about your interest in learning.

37

You might see some sparring in pads but that is just games.

What are you saying Joe Mantis?That all we (wal lum association) do is games?

38

lode runner

We are pong lai wu ji praying mantis. We are also ex- wah lummers who spend many years in the system.
A student of tom hausse’s(his wah lum school is near ours) started to bash us so we responded.
Master chan is mad at the things said and also that wah lum has lost students who decided to train with pong lai.

39

9dragonshijin:

My turn to be harsh.

So basically you’re saying that I should just jump right in without any research whatsoever and never question anything wah lum teaches me? That’s bull****. Promoting that sort of attitude will only lead to the detriment of MAs, as you’ll have a bunch of newbies who wind up joining the wrong school and becoming disillusioned.

>( Might want to watch a class before you go creating your own style)<

And this is just ****ing stupid. I was giving you guys a hypothetical situation based on how limiting these restrictions must be on prodigious students. I even threw in a “hah” directed at the concept of me becoming a master (because I’m pretty **** uncoordinated.)

I should also note that the privilege of blending styles should not and is not the sole domain of the grandmasters. I would hazard a guess that many people here on the boards do the same. Achieving this moderate to high level of skill where I can benefit from a little diversity is not (I think) out of my reach. Therefore, being able to learn other systems is relevant even if the other scenario is just a pipe dream (which – I freely admit – it probably is.)

>The fact that you have not even seen a class, says something about your interest in learning.<

What I will gain by looking at the class itself is based on what I already know; if I don’t know what makes a good kung fu program (sparring, proper forms, etc.) then I won’t learn much of anything. Yeah, I could probably get something out of it even if it isn’t what I eventually end up with but I think a month or two of research will be worth it to find a system that’s better for me.

18elders:

>We are pong lai wu ji praying mantis. We are also ex- wah lummers who spend many years in the system.
A student of tom hausse’s(his wah lum school is near ours) started to bash us so we responded.
Master chan is mad at the things said and also that wah lum has lost students who decided to train with pong lai.<

Ah, ok. I suppose that’s understandable, though I can’t comment about whether or not he was justified because I don’t know what all was said and who said it (if it was a student that’s one thing; if it was your Sifu that’s another.)

40

Lode Runner

Hey, do what you want.
Sifu Harry Lo, 6th level dan.Hmmmm.
Interesting research.