Tai Mantis Form?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Northern Praying Mantis
1

Hi all,
Some years back I learned from a Vietnamese
gentleman who told me the form I was learning
was a Tai Mantis Form. I did not have a
chance to get the whole form well ingrained
into my mind before moving to another part
of the country. I’d thought I’d describe the
first parts and see if any of you Tai Mantis
practioners know the form.

OPENING:

  1. Stand with your arms relaxed at your
    sides with feet together in the form of
    a V.
  2. Form fists with your hands and using
    light dynamic tension draw the fists to
    the waist and then change to open palm
    and press palms back down.

START FORM:
3. Look to the right and bring the
right foot out to the right in a 7-star
stance (the heel of the foot touches the
ground with the toes pointing up.

  1. At the same time bring the right palm
    up above the right foot with the palm
    side facing left. The elbow is at a
    90 degree angle.

  2. Shift weight forward onto the right leg
    while pivoting the right arm down
    horizontal as a block.

  3. At the same time attack with the left
    open palm over the horizontal right
    forearm.

  4. Shift the weight to the left leg in a
    evasive move (the feet still have not
    moved position) while changing the left
    hand to a fist and bringing it over
    the head to protect. The right fist/arm
    moves downward to block. The eyes still
    look back to the right.

  5. Move lower in the stance and circle the
    right fist to a strike to the groin with
    the palm side of the fist. The left also
    circles to again block above the head.

Does this sound like any forms in your Tai
Mantis schools? It’s really a nice form and
I’d like to solidify it if I can. I’m in
California if there are any practioners who
recognize the form I’d be grateful.

[This message has been edited by woliveri (edited 08-26-2000).]

2

Hi Woliveri,

Great to know more people are interested in TCPM. You wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>OPENING:

  1. Stand with your arms relaxed at your
    sides with feet together in the form of
    a V.
  2. Form fists with your hands and using
    light dynamic tension draw the fists to
    the waist and then change to open palm
    and press palms back down.

START FORM:
3. Look to the right and bring the
right foot out to the right in a 7-star
stance (the heel of the foot touches the
ground with the toes pointing up.

  1. At the same time bring the right palm
    up above the right foot with the palm
    side facing left. The elbow is at a
    90 degree angle.

  2. Shift weight forward onto the right leg
    while pivoting the right arm down
    horizontal as a block.

  3. At the same time attack with the left
    open palm over the horizontal right
    forearm.

  4. Shift the weight to the left leg in a
    evasive move (the feet still have not
    moved position) while changing the left
    hand to a fist and bringing it over
    the head to protect. The right fist/arm
    moves downward to block. The eyes still
    look back to the right.

  5. Move lower in the stance and circle the
    right fist to a strike to the groin with
    the palm side of the fist. The left also
    circles to again block above the head.

Does this sound like any forms in your Tai
Mantis schools? It’s really a nice form and
I’d like to solidify it if I can. I’m in
California if there are any practioners who
recognize the form I’d be grateful.[/quote]

This sounds like TCPM’s "Kuen Chung Jark Yiew
" (Highlights of the style(s)), which is one of the advanced level set. It is rather long, dynamic and demanding set.

#3 move, which you’ve describe is rather a step to the right.

The striking move that come after is like a left corkscrew hook punch in a kneeling stance.

If this is the set than you should be pretty advanced in TCPM. Would you mind giving a bit of your CMA training background? I’m sure other TCPM brothers here can give you more info on who to contact in your area.

Hope this would help. Please feel free to contact me via email at sifu1@internorth.com

Hope this would help. Good luck.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

3

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mantis108:
[b]Hi Woliveri,

Great to know more people are interested in TCPM. You wrote:

This sounds like TCPM’s "Kuen Chung Jark Yiew
" (Highlights of the style(s)), which is one of the advanced level set. It is rather long, dynamic and demanding set.

#3 move, which you’ve describe is rather a step to the right.

The striking move that come after is like a left corkscrew hook punch in a kneeling stance.

If this is the set than you should be pretty advanced in TCPM. Would you mind giving a bit of your CMA training background? I’m sure other TCPM brothers here can give you more info on who to contact in your area.

Hope this would help. Please feel free to contact me via email at sifu1@internorth.com

Hope this would help. Good luck.

Mantis108

[/b][/quote]

Yes, he told me it was the highest set of
the system when he learned in Vietnam and
it is quite long. I don’t have my notes with
me otherwise I could give you his name for
the form but the “sounding” sounds similar.
Actually, the more I think about it the name
sounds almost exactly the same but with
Vietnamese phonetics. The problem when
learning from him was time. He is in
college for his Masters degree and so had
little time to teach in depth. He used to
teach me at work (we both worked at the same
place) in a laundry room of a hotel :slight_smile: and
at his home on Saturday mornings.
I also learned a Tai Chi set from
him which he termed/named Tsui style Tai
Chi. This also was very long and nice.
My CMA background is first Wah Lum in and out
for several years and a couple years with the
Vietnamese gentleman (his name is Sang
Nguyen in Orlando Fl). My current practice
is mostly in Qi Gong but I still love Mantis.
I’m in southern California (Huntington Beach)
now and would love to see the form as it
exists today and actually would like to see
the rest of the style as well. I’ve never
seen an offical Tai Mantis school and would
love to see one.

4

Mantis 108 good to see yu still around!

Wolv: I am in the midst of researching the History of TCPM, perticularly the gentleman who brought the art to Vietnam.

Perhaps you could send me the name of the gentleman who taught this form to you?
Perhaps you may also be willing to describe the first few movements of the Tai Chi form you were taught? Do you by chance know any of the names for the movements? “Holding the Tai Chi” for instance?

I am curious if it was the “Palms” style brought to the west by Sigung Chiu Chuk-kai.

(Mantis108 you may know what it is?)

drop me a line!

(Taiji Mantis@aol.com)

Namaste.

5

The full name of the gentleman who taught me
the Tsui Tai Chi and the Tai Mantis set is
Sang Ngoc Nguyen (middle name is questionable
but I pretty sure that’s it.). He was a
teacher of math, physics and chemistry in
Saigon Vietnam. He has many stories
regarding the masters of Vietnam. One such
master was Duan Tam An. Ever heard of him?

Anyway, the Tsui Style Tai Chi:

The beginning goes like this:

  1. Stand looking forward with hands at sides
    and with feet in a V formation.

  2. Begin by raising arms/hand in front of
    the body with palms facing each other like
    ‘hold the ball’.

  3. When palms/arms get to the level of the
    chest pivot on the waist to the left moving
    the arms/palms on a horizontal plane until
    they reach the left side.

  4. Turn palms towards the earth bringing
    them together and pressing downward (left
    over right) like blocking a kick. The knees
    are bent somewhat at this point.

  5. Turn upper body 180 degrees to the right
    and step out in a 7-star / Tai Chi stance
    (with the heel on the ground and toe up.
    Palms are formed as follows. The right is
    horizontal with the open palm facing the body
    in front and to the left. The left palm is
    facing the right palm but this palm is
    vertical. Like holding a small ball. The
    body is shifted forward onto the right leg
    while the left leg stays in position. As
    this happens the two palms move in the same
    direction pressing forward.

  6. After position 5 is completed roll the
    weight back onto the left leg bringing the
    right foot back up in the 7-star/Tai Chi
    stance. As you move back the palms change
    position to left palm facing up and right
    palm facing down. The right palm is further
    away than the left but both are now in a
    line. This is like maybe holding someone or
    directing someone’s arm.

  7. Shift the weight back on right leg as in
    step 5 and with both palms facing downward
    form an X-Block horizontally in front of the
    body. Maybe this could be used for a throat
    attack or something similar.

Ok, Does this sound familiar? I would be
elated to find someone else who knew this
Tai Chi exercise.

Thanks,
William Oliveri
wuji@nivets.com

6

Namaste Taijimantis,

I am still around. Just that I suffer from Hardware failure. I was looking for your email address. How’s the book project?

Hi Woliveri,

The Taiji you discribed here is the Taiji palm set “Mor Wan Jeung” which is unique to our system. Did you learn the whole set? The gentelman must be a good friend of yours since he’s given you the cream of the corp stuff of TCPM. Are you still in contact with him? He may be able to help Taijimantis in his research. I definitely would encourage you to follow through with the TCPM training.

You mentioned you have Qigong training. What are your thoughts on the Mor Wan Jeung? Personally, I am quite fond of this set. I find the qi feeling is quite strong and appear faster that the Taijiquan routine. BTW, which type or style of Qigong do you perfer?

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

7

Wow, this is too good to be true. I never
knew anyone in the US knew of these exercises
before now. I had tried to do research
before but to no avail. I almost did a back
flip out of my office chair when I read your
response!!!

The Taiji you discribed here is the Taiji palm set “Mor Wan Jeung” which is unique to our system. Did you learn the whole set?

Yes I did. It took me a long time but
persistance paid off and I video taped myself
doing it so I’d have an archive of it.

The gentelman must be a good friend of yours since he’s given you the cream of the corp stuff of TCPM. Are you still in contact with him?

He’s a very good man. One thing that was
difficult for me though was his style of
teaching. He skipped around a lot instead of
sticking on one thing and learning it well.
When I questioned me about it he said he
wanted me to get a small set that I liked out
of all his teachings that would be useful
to me. I’m still not sure I understand but
that was his style and I went with it.

Yes, I still contact him every so often. He
told me when teaching me that he would never
hold anything back from me. When he was in
Vietnam he, being non-Chinese, had a very
difficult time learning Martial Arts from
various Masters. These Masters had they’re
ways as I’m sure you may know and so he had
seen many styles of that time go to the grave
because of some “tradition” that caused them
not to teach outside of family. He
appreciated me because I was devoted to his
teachings and would always come rain or
shine. He had many students come and go but
I was the only one who stayed with him.
Also, he never charged me to learn. So
anyway, having known the hard times of
learning in Vietnam he didn’t want to put me
through what he had to go through.

He may be able to help Taijimantis in his research. I definitely would encourage you to follow through with the TCPM training.

I would love to. How do I find out about
schools in the southern California area?
Is anyone still in contact with anyone in
Vietnam? It would be interesting to go for
a trip to see some MA there don’t you think?

I sent Sang an e-mail today so I’ll see if
it’s still valid and get a response. Then
I can offer him the idea and see what he
says. He loves Martial Arts very much and
has written many articles in a local
Vietnamese magazine in Orlando so I’m almost
sure he’d be willing to help. He is persuing
his Master’s degree in Computer Science so
he may be slow in response.

You mentioned you have Qigong training. What are your thoughts on the Mor Wan Jeung? Personally, I am quite fond of this set. I find the qi feeling is quite strong and appear faster that the Taijiquan routine. BTW, which type or style of Qigong do you perfer?

I love the “Mor Wan Jeung”. I was the only
one he taught that I know that learned the
whole thing. It has high, low, extended.
It’s great. I haven’t practiced it for some
time though and need to get back to it.

I’ve learned many different types of Qi Gong.
Oh, by the way, I also learned from Sang an
exercise called Noi Cong. This also wouldn’t
be from Taiji Mantis? This uses dynamic
tension while doing a martial movement and
holding the breath. Anyway, funny as it
seems, I’m gaining a lot from tranquil
sitting right now. It really helps to
collect. I like standing Wuji and I-Chuan
style of Qi Gong.

William Oliveri
wuji@nivets.com

8

Hi Woliveri, Taijimantis, and Mantis108!

Woliveri, if you don’t have a list of the names of the movements of Mo Waan Jeung, I have a copy I can send you. Like Mantis108, I find the set quite invigorating and I agree that the sensation of qi flowing occurs very rapidly. I too, study TCPM from the Vietnam lineage of Master Chiu Chuk Kai. Your teacher might be familiar with my Grandmaster since he was CCK’s 2nd disciple in Vietnam and travelled and taught with and for him both in North and South Vietnam. His Vietnamese name was Thrinh Hoa Thu and was also known as David Cheng when he moved to America. Unfortunately, he passed away last year.

From what I had been told, MWJ was originally called Taai Gihk Jeung (Taiji Palm), but due to everyone confusing it with the popular Taai Gihk Kyuhn (Taijiquan), the name was changed to distinguish it. There is also another set called Daan Yahn Teui Sau (Single Person Pushing Hands) that Sigung Cheng taught that was passed down to him from CCK. Like TGJ, there are no punches in the routine. My teacher prefers to refer to both sets as comprising the Taiji Palm system passed down by CCK. This also helps to distinguish them from the more generally known Taiji Boxing family systems prevalent today.

Noi Cong sounds like it might be the Vietnamese way of saying Noi Gung in Cantonese. This wouldn’t be a particular set, but are methods of training for internal power that vary from system to system. You learned Yiquan, that’s great! I know this is the NPM forum, but could I ask who was/is your teacher and how does he/she trace their lineage back to Wang Xiangzhai? To take it off this thread, you can send me a reply at eightgates@yahoo.com if you want.

Best wishes,
byz

[This message has been edited by byz (edited 08-27-2000).]

[This message has been edited by byz (edited 08-27-2000).]

9

Yes indeed, I was waiting to hear that description!
My Sifu teaches that Tai Chi set known simply as Tai Chi J’ang. He teaches much of that system, with broadsword and straitsword forms as well, including the spiral gim set called (in English) the “Sword of Da Mo”.

I know Sifu Ly is one of two in Michigan who has the complete system, but he laughed when I asked him about his “brother” in Detroit area, and said “He retire.”

Please if you can put me in contact with this gentleman I would greatly appriciate it.

108:: It is slowing down a bit at this point (Classes begin tomorrow, and my studies are #1 rite now) however I have recieved offers to help from numerous sources, ranging from 8mm film to Hong Kong Magazines and newspapers from Australia. Now I just need to get them translated…

I recently made contact with one of Sigung’s students in your neck of the woods(respectively) in Edmonton. Thomas Ng… name ring a bell?

Byz:: Anything you have I would like to see. I have a pretty good history of Northern Mantis, and I am waiting on some stuff on the history of Shaolin Temple, but I really would like some info on the origins of this set of Tai Chi. Even if it can only date to Sigung, that would be fine.

Thanx for all your help brothers (and sisters?)

May peace be your guide and serenity the light for your path.

Namaste.

10

Taijimantis, Byz, or Mantis108 how do I find
out about the Vietnam lineage of TCM in my
area and those who know these exercises?
I’m in southern California.

Taijimantis, as soon as I can get a hold of
Sang I’ll contact you and give you his e-mail
address.

Thanks,
William Oliveri
wuji@nivets.com

11

Taijimantis, I’m familiar with Tom Ng (Ng Dai Man) of Edmonton. He’s my ex-sifu. Email me if you like.

There was one guy in our city named Peter Tsang who was Tom’s sihing. I think Mr Tsang learned from Chiu Chuk Kai in both HK and Vietnam. Unfortunately, he passed away about 10 years ago, and had no real students.

12

Wow! Where were all of you when I first came to this board and made my post on Chiu Chuk-Kai?

Anyway fyi, I study under Ly Hoa Yen, of Sigung Chiu Chuk-Kai’s chosen 12. These 12 were sworn to uphold the teachings and preserve the art as long as they were able. I believe my Sifu to be the eldest of the living disciples from Sigung’s teaching in Vietnam. I am very fortuante to have found him.

As far as the southern California thing goes, there are several instructors in the Tai Mantis Federation, one of which is the current head of the Federation, Paul Eng. Sifu Eng (to the best of my knowledge) trained under Chiu Chuk-Kai in vietnam when he was about seventeen, for I think six months… every day… intensive. He is quite capable of giving you the information you seek, I think.

If anyone knows more on Sifu Eng, or can correct any of my statements please do. I must not misrepresent myself or others and I am by no means an expert.

There is at least one other in california, but none of the Chosen 12, (of course I have misplaced my list of the names and parts of the world they live in) so I will have to get back with you, but check out the Tai Mantis Webpage or contact 108, he is one of the best resources I have…

I am working as rapidly as I can, I would like to be able to have a directory made available as well as a complete list of forms with my history.

The total project will involve my article on the life of Chiu Chuk-Kai. In addition will be:

*a timeline
*a history of Northern Praying Mantis
*biographies of The main patriarchs
*philosophy
*training
*directory
*lineage
*biography of the 12
*photos and resource lists
*Kung Fu forms
*Tai Chi forms

It is quite a project but it will be worth it to have accessable to those of us whose fukienese isnt up to par!

Namaste.

13

Hi Taijimantis,

I am certain that your teacher must have known my Sigung, the late Thrinh Hoa Thu (also known as David Cheng), in Vietnam. He was an executive in a milk factory prior to the war. I have been told that he and 4 other disciples gathered together to document all the sets Chiu Chuk Kai taught in both North and South Vietnam. If I can find more substantive material about Taai Gihk Jeung, I would be happy to send it to you. I tried sending you an e-mail before, but I don’t think I had your address right. Could you please mail me at eightgates@yahoo.com so that I can correct it?

Thanks,
byz

14

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by woliveri:
[b]Taijimantis, Byz, or Mantis108 how do I find
out about the Vietnam lineage of TCM in my
area and those who know these exercises?
I’m in southern California.

Thanks,
William Oliveri
wuji@nivets.com[/b][/quote]

greetings Sihing

It is always good to see more TaiJi Mantis family.

Do you know the chinese name for this advance mantis set you learned? I can inquire with some elders about it.
I am in Northern Ca., but org. studied in So. Cal.

Eng Shifu, along with several others from the V.N. line are in this area , however it is about 8 hr drive from you in So Cal.

Kam Shifu is in So. Cal but…I do not know if he knows that set. He is in Tarzana about 1-1.5 hrs from you. If you wish to seek him out please contact me by eMail direct. I have not heard anyone else spoken of by the U.S.A. C.C.K. Federation as being in So Cal. Most seniors that I know to ask will want a Chinese name of the set or at least close to it.

Is your Sifu still active with his teaching?
Perhaps you and he would be interested in joining us next year for the 10th annual memorial banquet for Chui Chuk Kai SiGung in Northern Ca.

peace

15

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ShaolinMantis:
[b]
greetings Sihing

Do you know the chinese name for this advance mantis set you learned?

[/b][/quote]

From my Taiji Mantis brothers above they have
informed me that the name of the form is:
“Kuen Chung Jark Yiew”
and the Tai Chi set is called:
“Mor Wan Jeung”

Thanks for any help
William Oliveri
wuji@nivets.com

16

I wanted to ask Master Ly about the specifics of the Quigong on Tuesday… but I had to leave a little early. The only student of his I know of, who is permitted to teach the Taiji system is opening a studio for yoga, Taiji, massage, natural medicine and an organic juice bar. Two days a week we will be able to go in at 7am for practice and a Q&A so I will be able to access more info on this subject for you if you like.

Unfortunately all my Tai Mantis Brothers and sisters… My project has hit a snag…

I have loads of info… but it is all in Chinese Character. Any translators out there?

17

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Taijimantis:
[b]I wanted to ask Master Ly about the specifics of the Quigong on Tuesday… but I had to leave a little early. The only student of his I know of, who is permitted to teach the Taiji system is opening a studio for yoga, Taiji, massage, natural medicine and an organic juice bar. Two days a week we will be able to go in at 7am for practice and a Q&A so I will be able to access more info on this subject for you if you like.

Unfortunately all my Tai Mantis Brothers and sisters… My project has hit a snag…

I have loads of info… but it is all in Chinese Character. Any translators out there?

[/b][/quote]
Shidai

I can help you with this fairly easy. Can you send me a photocopy?

Bay Shaolin Acad,
4966 Pacheco Blvd.
Martinez, CA
94553

Anyone know how to change passwords on this system?
I can never remember these letters and numbers.

Also…is there some trick to signing up on this board? I tried 4 times before I got on. My Shidai has tried many times and has yet to get his password.

18

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by woliveri:
[b] From my Taiji Mantis brothers above they have
informed me that the name of the form is:
“Kuen Chung Jark Yiew”
and the Tai Chi set is called:
“Mor Wan Jeung”

Thanks for any help
William Oliveri
wuji@nivets.com

[/b][/quote]

Shixiang
I have some info for you. It may not be that helpful, but I will contact you directly, concerning So.Cal

19

Did someone mention David Cheng? His school is now in hawaii. He past away last year. His son Brian Cheng took over the school. I hope they are doing well.

20

Master David Cheng

Hi Cha Kuen,

Master David Cheng was my sigung in Chuk Kai Taijimantis. Did you train under Cheng Sigung or just friends of the family? Brian is doing fine and might move to California. You can mail me at eightgates@yahoo.com if you like.

Best wishes!