This is an attempt to clarify certain things. I am by no means the spokeperson for the style.
Tai Chi Praying Mantis of GrandMaster Chui Chuk Kai’s lineage has both Praying Mantis and Chen Style (Small Circle) Tai Chi in its curriculum.
His specialties include the following beside the regular Mantis and Tai Chi:
TaiJo “Sung Grand Emperor” dune Da (Sau Fa). 64 combinations ( form I Ching 8 trigrams)
Cloudy Palm also know as “Tai Chi Jeung” (a Shantung province Taoist Temple specialty)
Shaolin Fut Jong “108 Buddhist Wooden Dummy Set”
Sectioned Whip-Chain.
Roped dart.
Hard style Body and limbs conditioning. AKA Iron Shirt and Iron Palm.
These are the more distinguished features of his lineage. It has been on my mind for a while that there are much confussion out there about this style. So I attempt to help clarify things a bit. If anyone like to add to it please do for the sake of the style. Thanks.
Mantis
Is this the style ‘taught’ by David Caradine in his Tai-chi video ??
I ask because I heard he was taught by Kam Yeun who is an instructor in Tai chi Mantis.
Thanks for the interest. Frankly, I haven’t seen the video. David Caradine (the Hollywood star?) learned Tai Chi Mantis? That’s…
I’ve heard some not so pleasant comment on his Kung Fu endeavors. Personally, I don’t think of Mr Caradine (the actor) as a martial artist. He may be ligit. yet in my mind I would think he is more an actor.
GrandMaster Chui had so many student worldwild and from different period (he taught in different places China Vietnam, HK,and Macca.) It certainly is interesting to find out if Mr Caradine studied under Sifu Kam Yuen (I have not the pleasure to know Sifu Kam).
I have heard about Kam Yuen teaching David Carradine as well.
Kam Yuen studied more than just one martial art, and I’m sure he has his share of good students, and bad students. (you guys can do the math from here, hehe).
There are a few american tai chi instructors out there who use TCPM’s (tai chi praying mantis), 8 stances form for training. I think one of them is Bob Klein. So, you can see that Chiu Chuk Kai’s martial arts have really spread out over the last 50 years.
Mantis 108, you might want to talk about TCPM’s groundfighting. I have heard that it is pretty famous among the elite martial artists.
I have also heard through Kam Yuen that Carradine was a student of his. Kam Yuen’s business card says that he teaches t’ai chi and kung fu, but I know him mainly for his involvement in the lecture/seminar/convention circuit, talking about his “Chinese Energetic Healing.”
I was curious, where did you get this information about Master Chiu Juk Kai incorporating the Chen style Xiao Jia form into his curriculum? I have practiced the Juk Kai system for about 7 years now and my grandmaster was CJK’s number 2 disciple in Vietnam. He studied with CJK for over 20 years and travelled with him from North to South Vietnam and was one of his main instructors. During that time, the only Taijiquan that was taught that I am aware of was the simplified 24 movement form from Beijing and the simplified sword form both of which are based on the Yang style. CJK did create and teach his own Taiji form, but it isn’t very popular from my understanding. I practice Chen style Laojia and Xiaojia, but not from the Juk Kai school. Perhaps this was added later since I am unaware of this being practiced by the Hong Kong Branch either.
On another note, I understand Kam Yuen practices Tai Mantis not Tai Chi Mantis. Talking with my teacher and a friend who was a student from the Kam Yuen school, it is a mixture of Mantis with the Law Hon Mi Jong system.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>I was curious, where did you get this information about Master Chiu Juk Kai incorporating the Chen style Xiao Jia form into his curriculum? I have practiced the Juk Kai system for about 7 years now and my grandmaster was CJK’s number 2 disciple in Vietnam. He studied with CJK for over 20 years and travelled with him from North to South Vietnam and was one of his main instructors. During that time, the only Taijiquan that was taught that I am aware of was the simplified 24 movement form from Beijing and the simplified sword form both of which are based on the Yang style. CJK did create and teach his own Taiji form, but it isn’t very popular from my understanding. I practice Chen style Laojia and Xiaojia, but not from the Juk Kai school. Perhaps this was added later since I am unaware of this being practiced by the Hong Kong Branch either.
On another note, I understand Kam Yuen practices Tai Mantis not Tai Chi Mantis. Talking with my teacher and a friend who was a student from the Kam Yuen school, it is a mixture of Mantis with the Law Hon Mi Jong system.[/quote]
Welcome aboard. Great to have a brother form Sigung’s Vietnam branch. We, the younger students and Grand students, have alway wanted to know more about that era of Sigung’s life and career. I study under my mentor Galen Fok, who is GM CJK’s disciple. There are 3 hand forms and a sword form from the Taiji portion. The Taiji Forms are used as warm ups in the HK Kwoon in the latter years of Sigung’s teaching. The Taijiquan and Dan Tui Sau (single push hand) are, or I was told, from Chen system Xiaojia (small circle). Dan Tui Sau in a way reminiscent of Poa Tsui of the Laojia. Quite Frankly, I’m open to explore more on this. Mor Wan Jeung (Cloudy Plam) is from a Taoist monastery according to an article in the Wooden Dummy Form Book which was approve by Sigung himself. As for the structure of the Taijiquan, it is very close to the full Yang style structure (definitely not simplified) with extra kicks. According to Wong Ching Bill, who studied in Vietnam, the Vietnam curriculum is quite different from HK’s. The Dai/Sui Fan Chair are not in the HK curriculum. During my time with Sigung, we notice some changes with forms also. For example Jeet Kuen, one of the hook hands use to be a long fist type of hook hands extended out to the side of the body. It was later taught as a mantis hook guarding the side of the head. We too had a debate over such changes. I surmise that was an intention to show us the offensive and defense positions of the same hand. Anyway, I can go on all day about it. If you are interested in getting more infomation, please feel free to contact me at sifu1@internorth.com . I also love to know more about your view on Taijiquan.
Thanks for clearifying the Kam Yuen’s background. I often tought that Tai Mantis and Tai Chi Praying Mantis is two different systems. I guess this will settle that.
Mantis108
Contraria Sunt Complementa
[This message has been edited by mantis108 (edited 07-05-2000).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by byz:
[b]Hi Mantis108!
On another note, I understand Kam Yuen practices Tai Mantis not Tai Chi Mantis. Talking with my teacher and a friend who was a student from the Kam Yuen school, it is a mixture of Mantis with the Law Hon Mi Jong system.
Thank you for sharing!
byz[/b][/quote]
In the seventies, Both Kam Yuen and Raymond Wong went back to Hong Kong to learn more martial arts. Kam Yuen went back to learn Tai Chi Mantis while Raymond Wong went to learn My Jong Law Horn. The deal was that later on they would share with what they had learnt.
Initially, they shared some forms and techniques and then they got into an argument and went their separate ways. Wong has been retired for decades and Kam is really into the "New Age" stuff.
Thank you for your welcome! I am replying publicly for the benefit of those who are unfamiliar with our branch of Mantis.
I see where the confusion may be. Please correct me if I misunderstand you, but are you including Mo Waahn Jeung (Palms Rubbing the Clouds) and Daan Yahn Teui Sau (Single Person Pushing Hands) with the Taijiquan sets? The way my teacher classifies it, both sets belong to the Taai Gihk Jeung (Tai Chi Palm) system since they developed along different lines from Taai Gihk Kyuhn (Taijiquan - Tai Chi Fist or Boxing) (sorry for the mixture of Cantonese and Mandarin, I learned everything in Cantonese and wasn’t sure if everyone is familiar with the Cantonese name for Taijiquan). Another distinguishing feature is that there are no fists used in the sets (at least in our version). It was my understanding that the simplified Taijiquan sets were introduced via CJK’s association with the Jing Mo Association.
My teacher had an opportunity to study in HK with both CJK and Kwong Kun Wai. He said he had to learn the HK versions of the sets he already knew before he could go on to learn the material he had originally gone there for. He generally prefers the Vietnamese version, but he does demonstrate the differences between some of the movements to us to help us see the variations. I’ll contact you separately about other matters or you can email me at eightgates@yahoo.com.
Thank you everyone for putting up with this somewhat lengthy e-mail.
Thanks for the info. Correct me if I have misunderstood you, Kam Yuen did studied some Tai Chi Praying Mantis and went on to develope Tai Mantis with the help of Raymond Wong? It would be interesting to see how these 2 systems come together. Have you seen the style?
Hi byz,
It is pretty tough to communicate in English since there are Manderin and Cantonese pronounciations. Not to mention the conventions within the style differ from school to school. I am aware that there are different versions of the story of the injection of Taijiquan into the Mantis system. The way, I look at it is that the current GM CCK’s lineage is enrich by having a Taiji program. Both my mentor and I have followed GM CCK’s vision of TCPM. I certainly feel the benefit of such inclusion. Because of my small physique, the theories and suppleness of Taiji training enhanced my Mantis practice. Right now I am working on applying Taiji principles in performing the “Lan Jeet” set, which by the way is my favorite. Mor Wan Jeung is very unique as you have described. I also love to keep in touch with you, so please feel free to contact me. BTW, have you read the Wooden Dummy book?
Having been a Taijiquan practitioner before studying TCPM, I readily agree that the two are very complementary. A big misconception by people unfamiliar with the system is that Taijiquan and Tang Lang were combined from the start when it was really the concept of Taiji (Yin/Yang and other complementary principles) that it tries to manifest. After learning Mo Waahn Jeung and Daan Yahn Teui Sau, I can see why CJK included them into his system! I find them wonderfully invigorating and the sense of qi flowing comes across very quickly.
I hadn’t heard of CJK’s vision for TCPM. I have an idea from what you write, but could you expound on that a little more for the benefit of the group?
Being at heart a Taijiquan practitioner, the Taai Gihk Jeung sets are my favorite at the moment, but I do enjoy the other routines such as Lan Jiht. How close do you play to Tse Wing Ming’s text? I have seen my teacher’s copy of the Muhk Yahn Johng, but don’t have a copy myself. Is it still available somewhere?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mantis108:
[b]Hi Molum_jr,
Thanks for the info. Correct me if I have misunderstood you, Kam Yuen did studied some Tai Chi Praying Mantis and went on to develope Tai Mantis with the help of Raymond Wong? It would be interesting to see how these 2 systems come together. Have you seen the style?
[/b][/quote]
No, Raymond Wong did not help develop Tai Mantis. The only thing I've heard is that the surviving disciples in the USA of CCK have created a Tai Chi Mantis Assc. They do not "approve" of the Tai Mantis videos* being hawked by a student of Kam.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Having been a Taijiquan practitioner before studying TCPM, I readily agree that the two are very complementary. A big misconception by people unfamiliar with the system is that Taijiquan and Tang Lang were combined from the start when it was really the concept of Taiji (Yin/Yang and other complementary principles) that it tries to manifest. After learning Mo Waahn Jeung and Daan Yahn Teui Sau, I can see why CJK included them into his system! I find them wonderfully invigorating and the sense of qi flowing comes across very quickly.
I hadn’t heard of CJK’s vision for TCPM. I have an idea from what you write, but could you expound on that a little more for the benefit of the group?
Being at heart a Taijiquan practitioner, the Taai Gihk Jeung sets are my favorite at the moment, but I do enjoy the other routines such as Lan Jiht. How close do you play to Tse Wing Ming’s text? I have seen my teacher’s copy of the Muhk Yahn Johng, but don’t have a copy myself. Is it still available somewhere?[/quote]
Very insightful post. We have to answer to that question all the time. Some are highly skeptical of our ligitimacy. The injection of the Taiji components is an effort of Sigung. Prior to his time, there was not a Taijiquan section within the TCPM. I believe he was impressed by the fighting ability of the Taiji practitioners that he sought out Taijiquan. We must also remember that there were other TCPM masters and practitioners (Sigung’s peers at the time)who were not exposed to any Taiji system and might have passed on their versions of the art. This, of course, doesn’t mean that they are not practicing the style. It is just that their vision is different from Sigung. I am of the opinion that it is more beneficial for TCPM to include the Taiji section in the curriculum.
Taiji Jeung is very unique. Personally, I prefer that to Taijiquan. The first 10 moves of Lan jeet (sep dai lin wan pek), I do them somewhat resembling Chen style Laojia. The 2 chops with the Taiji Stance are done sort of like the “Gum Gong Dou Chiu” Faa Jing. I think structure wise, we are close. I met Tse Wing Ming once or twice at Sigung’s place in HK. He was quite consume by his sword collection. The conversations he had with the others were more about his swords.
The book is still available. If you need more info on that please let me know.
Also, I will contact you on Chen style Taiji. I love to learn more about both jias as they are beneficial to TCPM.
On David Carridine:
He did study with Kam Yuen and also my Sihing when in Canada. He did not Study Taiji Mantis per say. He did study Northern Shaolin and Lohan.
The Taiji that is on his video ( poorly done ) is a real Taiji set. It was taught to Sifu Kam by Sigung Wong Jac Man ( The Bruce Lee fighter ) who learned it from Jing Mo or Jing Wu in China I forget which it is. as far a Carridine, we use to laugh at his Kung Fu. Most of the fight scenes from both show were done by doubles, either Sifu or Rob Sihing.
Off topic, I have been trying to contact other Taiji mantis people here, but no one wants to list their eMail. Mine is listed, but to be sure, I can be contacted here as I do not know how much time I have to put into posting here. Shifu@shao-lin-dao.com
Mantis108 : are you with Wong Sisuk’s school? or in Alberta?