Tai Chi wins in MMA

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
141

I do understand the nuiances of Internet etiquette, each and everyone on the interent has a opinion, and most on here let us all know.

Your free to apply credibility to anyone on here over me, I just wonder why those you mentioned haven’t put video of themselves up on here for all to see..things that make us go hmmmm…

and to what rep are you talking about? I just signed up a MT fighter that said his former instructor used the phrase “Muay Thai is king of the ring, Wing Chun is king of the street”, sounds like a good rep to me..

I have no problem saying that IMO WING CHUN IS THE MOST EFFECTIVE MA IN THE WORLD, we have used this in our advertising for years, not many have come down to find out, same as the Krav Maga gym down the street does now, but you don’t see me running down to see them to complain or ask for proof. That happened to me once and I was challenged to find out, in the end I told the guy to throw the first punch and he failed to comply. Years later he appologized to me because he was brainwashed by his teacher to do such things..I may not have the years of training that you may have in multiple arts, but over the years I’ve met enough MA of all kinds of styles that come in to verify what I have said in all of these posts and what I stated above. Again fell free to disagree, but the BS meter is non-existent.

Yes all arts have angling, distancing and timing in them, I’ve never denied that, but to repeat myself again, IMO not to the same degree. For example, our guarding postion, requires no movement of my hands when he throws any punch to my head, regardless if it is round or straight when foot positioning is proper in relationship with the opponent . This means I have economy of movement in my guard and strong structure. The only thing I’m thinking about is the opening in my opponents structure and when to attack instead of my openings. People that protect the outer area of the head and open up the centerline expose themselves to the fastest movements, straight lines, therefore if you do it this way you have more to think about (moving your hand to protect the straight attack, whereas I don’t since that, as well as the round/hook is already protected) Things like this are damm hard to explain on internet threads, but have to be demonstrated in person for some to understand.

I tested my self already many times through out my MA career. In my own kwoon and outside. Used to enter tournaments but the point tourney’s sucked. We hit them to much and in the end it was all a game of tag anyways, plus they had no power and you could just stand there and take their best shot and nothing would come of it. I lost all desire of competitions after those few.
I do agree with you that you have to test what you know and test yourself, to push yourself and learn from your mistakes..

Then please tell me, what makes a MA effective, beside training practices, because we all know that you have to train hard to learn anything. What else is there that makes Muay Thai effective? What makes Shuai chiao effective? Please tell me then maybe I can understand more.

Then if one doesn’t like to fight, does that mean they can’t? I don’t like fighting, but I can if I have to. Warriors are anyone that has learned the lessons, fought the wars and has no need to do it again. I’m not saying I am a warrior, but I’ve learned from one, and I tend to believe what he says.

James

142

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
I know of some BJJ black belts, for example…who have walked into a certain WC school in New Jersey and were pounded into the ground…never took the instructor down even once.
How convenient that none of those were ever recorded. Either that is complete BS or whoever owns that school in New Jersey is a complete idiot in terms of marketing his business. Can you imagine the PR potential of a WC instructor beating down several BJJ blackbelts? If that really happened that instructor would have to be very stupid to not record the beatdowns. That would be the wing chun public relations coupe of the century.

143

Originally posted by SevenStar
[B]if his interview of joe lewis reflects his feelings at all, he doesn’t think too highly of wing chun:

http://www.mikemiles.com/people/interviews/lewis.cfm

his gym in southeast calgary teaches CMA though… [/B]

I don’t think Lewis has a great opinion of WC also, at least the WC of the past, where most practiticioners lived off the arts reputation. I agree with you here Sevenstar, if this is the case then it doesn’t matter what MA you participate in, if you haven’t put the work in you will not succeed in it.

My Sifu put 27yrs into other Kung-fu systems, systems that he used many times in fighting/self defence situations that worked well for him, and he dropped them all when he learned the proper WC. He realized the potential of it and its effectiveness. I believe the same.

Sifu has been in Calgary since 89’ and has advertised his WC as the most effective MA, so Miles has had plenty of time and opportunity to come down to test him out, but hasn’t yet…

Allot of gyms here are saying they teach CMA as part of their cirriculum, since kung-fu is making a come back, but most of it is bogus…Calgary has a ton of MA here, more than Vancouver which is 3X our size in population..

James

144

Originally posted by sihing
So if all of this is equal, what determines the most effective art? The one based on more effective and efficient movements. In the end when strength and speed are equal then skill will win. When strength and speed are not equal, then the only way to bridge that gap for the weaker party is superior skills, technique and concepts in fighting methods.
And those skills come from constant full contact sparring and/or competitions.

Originally posted by sihing
The science of WC goes beyond the close quarters fighting techniques that most think. The grappling is there, you just have to see it,
What do you mean, you just have to see it. If you are not actually practicing it, it might as well not be there.

Originally posted by sihing
WC provides you with this edge, that was the whole purpose behind it creation.
Only in theory.

145

Originally posted by sihing
It has, just not reported in large publications. I’ve related such events before on this forum, only to get “oh yeahs”, and “must of been a low level competiton event” comments back at me. There was a current student, who is 18 yrs old today, and at the time of the competition only 16yrs old, with 1-1 1/2 yrs of training behind him. He competed in a Muay Thai sponsored event with similarly matched opponents and cleaned house. They couldn’t handle the basic attack of WC and the referees’s couldn’t either, due to the fact that they charged him with being to aggressive. How does one be to aggressive in a full contact event in MT?
Sihing- Still being the stupid guy, I see.
You answered your own question. How does one be too aggressive in a Muay Thai event? Obviously, it had to be an incredibly low level event because there is no such thing as being too aggressive in Muay Thai.

146

“I know of some BJJ black belts, for example…who have walked into a certain WC school in New Jersey and were pounded into the ground…never took the instructor down even once.” (Ultimatewingchun)

“How convenient that none of those were ever recorded. Either that is complete BS or whoever owns that school in New Jersey is a complete idiot in terms of marketing his business. Can you imagine the PR potential of a WC instructor beating down several BJJ blackbelts?” (KF)

I hate to break this to you, Dale…but to some people in the world this is not such a big deal.

You act as if BJJ is unbeatable.

It’s not.

147

Originally posted by sihing
He even walked up to our fighter and said to him is that all he had ( the student was using the most basic of WC techniques, which is obviously all he needed), a sure sign that our fighter was bothering him, otherwise why would a big time trainer be paying attention to a first time fighter in the novice division
Either you WC guys must think the rest of the world is incredibly naive, or, in reality, the people you come in contact in with who are running business have zero business sense. A guy just completely tears up the novice division of a MT event and the trainer, whose livelihood relies on him recruiting new talent, walks up to him and harrasses him? Give me a break… the first thing any “champion” trainer would do would be to congratulate him and try to get him into his gym to start training and competing for him.

148

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]I hate to break this to you, Dale…but to some people in the world this is not such a big deal.

You act as if BJJ is unbeatable.

It’s not. [/B]
BJJ is definitely beatable. However, a WC guy who “pounded into the ground” several BJJ blackbelts would be pretty big news in the martial arts world.

Something like that could be parlayed into millions. But of course, that instructor is probably too enlighted to care about anything as mundane as money. Either that, or too dense to realize the potential that could have for his business.

149

Originally posted by sihing
[B]I do understand the nuiances of Internet etiquette, each and everyone on the interent has a opinion, and most on here let us all know.

Your free to apply credibility to anyone on here over me, I just wonder why those you mentioned haven’t put video of themselves up on here for all to see..things that make us go hmmmm…[/b]

I’m referring to the merits of a post, not an attestment of skill. Those mentioned have had direct experience with other styles. You, however, have not.

and to what rep are you talking about? I just signed up a MT fighter that said his former instructor used the phrase “Muay Thai is king of the ring, Wing Chun is king of the street”, sounds like a good rep to me..

howard stern is known as the king of all media. not everyone knows that he gave himself that name though, and it stuck… Like I’ve said, I don’t doubt that WC can be effective, but if WC as a whole (or at least a majority) isn’t trained properly, how well does it actually live up to the name? Even other WC guys on this forum say that it’s not trained correctly in many schools.

I have no problem saying that IMO WING CHUN IS THE MOST EFFECTIVE MA IN THE WORLD

tunnel vision…

we have used this in our advertising for years, not many have come down to find out, same as the Krav Maga gym down the street does now, but you don’t see me running down to see them to complain or ask for proof.

the point is not to go and ask for proof…UNLESS you are making claims like that. Especially in the case of someone with no other experience. I know many of the instructors in my area and am very friendly with them. I did make a trip to spar with the krav maga guys though. This is not the 15th century - people don’t come to your school daily in order to challenge your teacher and take the school’s sign if he wins.

People that protect the outer area of the head and open up the centerline expose themselves to the fastest movements, straight lines, therefore if you do it this way you have more to think about (moving your hand to protect the straight attack, whereas I don’t since that, as well as the round/hook is already protected) Things like this are damm hard to explain on internet threads, but have to be demonstrated in person for some to understand.

who holds their hands open like that? you’re not referring to the old thai stance that you see on tv, are you?

I tested my self already many times through out my MA career. In my own kwoon and outside. Used to enter tournaments but the point tourney’s sucked. We hit them to much and in the end it was all a game of tag anyways, plus they had no power and you could just stand there and take their best shot and nothing would come of it. I lost all desire of competitions after those few.
I do agree with you that you have to test what you know and test yourself, to push yourself and learn from your mistakes..

I don’t consider sparring in kwoon as testing, but I definitely agree on point tourneys. i hate them with a passion.

Then please tell me, what makes a MA effective, beside training practices, because we all know that you have to train hard to learn anything. What else is there that makes Muay Thai effective? What makes Shuai chiao effective? Please tell me then maybe I can understand more.

it’s not merely training hard. it’s training efficiently and effectively. shuai chiao guys’ training methods are directly related to how they fight, from stances to sparring. thai boxers do the same. of forms are done as drills as opposed to long drawn out forms, the pad work is drilling what you are training into you while simultaneously building stamina, teaching you about distance and angling, entering, etc. These things in combination with regular sparring contribute to making them what they are. it’s not only training hard, but training smart as well.

Then if one doesn’t like to fight, does that mean they can’t? I don’t like fighting, but I can if I have to.

In the context of ring fighters, which is what we were talking about, then yes. you by your standards are a “warrior” and not in the category I was talking about. As far as fighting in the street goes, yes, many people can when they have to. To be honest though, I don’t think I would classify them as fighters though. Ther term ‘fighter’ implies that you fight, not that you fight (defend?) yourself when you have to.

Warriors are anyone that has learned the lessons, fought the wars and has no need to do it again. I’m not saying I am a warrior, but I’ve learned from one, and I tend to believe what he says.

: a man engaged or experienced in warfare; broadly : a person engaged in some struggle or conflict

Main Entry: war·fare
Pronunciation: 'wor-"far, -"fer
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from werre, warre war + fare journey, passage – more at FARE

military operations between enemies : HOSTILITIES, WAR; also : an activity undertaken by a political unit (as a nation) to weaken or destroy another <economic warfare>

150

“Something like that could be parlayed into millions. But of course, that instructor is probably too enlighted to care about anything as mundane as money. Either that, or too dense to realize the potential that could have for his business.” (KF)

The guy has over 100 students.

Teaching martial arts is all that he does for a living.

Lives in an upper-middleclass town…owns a nice house…several vehicles…a wife and a son.

He’s doin’ fine.

151

“Large guys rely too much on their natural size advantage so they have a false sense of security in some situations, therefore they get overconfident.” (sihing)

“in the beginning, possibly. That’s natural for anyone. As we (I’m one of those big guys, so I have a lot of experience in this area) progess, we learn to relax and learn not to rely on our size and strength as that will stagnate learning. IME, it won’t make you overconfident for long. Get beat by enough little guys and that will change. Size and strength is indeed an advantage though, and you will learn when and how to use it.” (SevenStar)

“That art is in my mind like WC for the ground, very sophisticated and effective, except I do not believe it is sound strategy to fight on the ground.” (sihing)

“Don’t look at it that way - If we are both in a bar fight and we both get taken to the ground and mounted, who is more likely to be able to get up most quickly and efficiently - you with no grappling training, or me? Who is likely better at defending against a solid takedown? It’s not necessarily about finishing the fight on the ground, but about being able to handle yourself wherever you may be.” (SevenStar)

“We have not had our heads stuck in the ground for decades, and are aware of the others arts out there today, and what they have to offer also.” (sihing)

“it sounds like you have an incomplete picture though.” (SevenStar)

“I could go all day on the reason’s why WC is very efficient.” (sihing)

“I don’t disagree. but to think that as far as efficiency goes the wc is leaps and bounds above everything else is incorrect, IMO.” (SevenStar)

“All of the above people that won are pros, and very skilled athletes, exceptions to the rule. Every MA has people like this in them, including yourself. WC works for the masses, whereas most MA don’t work as effectively due to their physical attribute requirements and training requirements. WC was specifically designed to require less training time to produce effective fighters.” (sihing)

"There is no physical pre-req. the muay thai roundhouse, for example is powerful due to the mechanics of it. You don’t have to be big and strong to deliver a solid one.

sport fighting produces fighters quickly as well. " (SevenStar)

“Most average people cannot train like those mentioned above.” (sihing)

“yes, they can. At my club, you will train as if you have an upcoming fight - whether you fight or not, you will be in competition shape and will have the skill development to go with it. IME, this is how sport fighting clubs in general are.” (Sevenstar)

…

I realize that this exchange was much earlier in the thread - but I’ve really got to comment on this.

First of all…next May will be 30 years that I’m doing Wing Chun…but I’ve got to agree with SevenStar in just about everything that went on in this exchange with James (sihing)…especially this last part:

“yes, they can. At my club, you will train as if you have an upcoming fight - whether you fight or not, you will be in competition shape and will have the skill development to go with it. IME, this is how sport fighting clubs in general are.” (Sevenstar)

And this is the key to the whole exchange…by his own admission James doesn’t engage in hard contact sparring/training anymore - which is why he’s just not “getting it”.

And what’s it?

Wing Chun is great stuff…but without that kind of hard training on a frequent basis against skilled fighters who can really use some of the non-wing chun moves that SevenStar has alluded to…James will never be adequately exposed to what’s out there today; because if he were…he’d know that it’s wise to do some crosstraining in a grappling art.

152

Victor:
Ask him if he’d like to make some really big money. If so, and he would be willing and able to actually demonstrate his ability of dominating a couple of BJJ blackbelts again, I’d like to talk to him personally. I’ve got quite a few contacts and, if he can really do what you say he can, I’m interested in possibly promoting him.

153

,

The science of WC goes beyond the close quarters fighting techniques that most think. The grappling is there, you just have to see it,

[B]Now WC is grappling art, a stand up art, a street fighting art, a kicking art____ (fill in the blank) Is there any marketing key word you don’t jump on? Please, this is tiresome. Was there ever a WC system of ground fighting? No.

You tell me what system outside of Fukien “Dog Boxing” specialized or trained in that range.
Then tell me how that was incorporated into WC boxing.

Many CMA’s train throwing, and excel in this area. But groundwork? No, Unless you are re-writing history.[/B]

154

“Large guys rely too much on their natural size advantage so they have a false sense of security in some situations, therefore they get overconfident.” (sihing)

Sweeping generalization. I take it Sihing is small.

155

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
“WC is based mostly on theory.” (KF)
And speaking of WC’s over-reliance on theory, all one has to do is visit the WC forum to see this in action. 90% of the stuff is about theory. There are pages and pages of theoretical discussion on energy generation, center line theory, blind side theory, structural theory, Steiner point triangular theory, internal energy generation theories, arguments about what is the correct weight distribution, how high to raise the bong sao, whose lineage is better or more real, whether or not chi sao is sparring, etc, etc, ad naseum.

And speaking of sparring, you guys are so off the deep end on theory that it becomes a major project to actually have WC guys think about sparring other WC people. First you have pages and pages of discussion on the theoretical implications of sparring with each other in the first place. And after all that, does anyone get together to spar? No, you then come up with a 10 point theoretical proposal on the theory of WC guys getting together with other WC guys to think about theoretically sparring with each other sometime and someplace in the future.

156

Knifefighter LOL.
:smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

157

Re: ,

Originally posted by BAI HE
[B]The science of WC goes beyond the close quarters fighting techniques that most think. The grappling is there, you just have to see it,

Now WC is grappling art, a stand up art, a street fighting art, a kicking art____ (fill in the blank) Is there any marketing key word you don’t jump on? Please, this is tiresome. Was there ever a WC system of ground fighting? No.
B]

As a matter of fact…thanks for bring it all up and out in the open as to what the WC system is all about. Not all WC is equal, so until you have seen it all then I would not comment. While some see only trapping and punching, others see a larger picture…

James

158

But where does someone see that form of WC? Sihing you’re the one saying that WC is the best. Not just a good art but the best. People want something to back that statement up.

Are those mullets I see?

159

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]
I realize that this exchange was much earlier in the thread - but I’ve really got to comment on this.

First of all…next May will be 30 years that I’m doing Wing Chun…but I’ve got to agree with SevenStar in just about everything that went on in this exchange with James (sihing)…especially this last part:

“yes, they can. At my club, you will train as if you have an upcoming fight - whether you fight or not, you will be in competition shape and will have the skill development to go with it. IME, this is how sport fighting clubs in general are.” (Sevenstar)

And this is the key to the whole exchange…by his own admission James doesn’t engage in hard contact sparring/training anymore - which is why he’s just not “getting it”.

And what’s it?

Wing Chun is great stuff…but without that kind of hard training on a frequent basis against skilled fighters who can really use some of the non-wing chun moves that SevenStar has alluded to…James will never be adequately exposed to what’s out there today; because if he were…he’d know that it’s wise to do some crosstraining in a grappling art. [/B]

This is not about individual assets and abilities. I’ve always tried to talk about Wing Chun as a art on it’s own, in comparison to other arts. All arts have effective fighters that can make their systems work. I’ve got no problems there. My point is always about effectiveness of movements and how well can average people with average time commitments to MA training apply what they learn, not grand champs of international events.

I always tell new students that they may not be the best fighter but they will not make it easy for any one of MA ability that attacks them or anyone else for that matter. And if a little more training is all it takes to beat them then that is a easy process to complete, and one I would rather complete than learning a whole new set of MA techniques to overcome the “modern day Martial Artist”.. Once again it is all there in the system for the taking.. That’s it for me on this thread..

James

160

Originally posted by rogue
[B]But where does someone see that form of WC? Sihing you’re the one saying that WC is the best. Not just a good art but the best. People want something to back that statement up.

Are those mullets I see? [/B]

Best is subjective. Best for what? Effective is more applicable. If you don’t think what your studying now is the most effective, why do you continue to study it? It’s a free country, and no one is keeping anyone from leaving there kwoon. So therefore, all that study what they do believe the same, otherwise they would learn it. Paul Vunak obviously believes what he does it the most effective, othewise he would not advocate/teach what he does, no different with my statement. Krav Maga does the same in Calgary and I have no need to ask them to back it up. I’m secure in my knowledge and only people with weak ego’s need to do these things. If you don’t believe what I say then so be it, ignore all posts by me. There’s only so much I can explain on a internet forum, sooner or later if you want to know why I feel the way I do then you will have to learn the same methods as I and experience the same things.

James

P.S. Yes, I guess that’s a mullet for me, but that was the style of the time(early 90’s). No big deal, all of us I have changed fashions over the years, so to try and make silly comments like mullets just shows immaturity.