I was wondering if the advanced students could give me some insight. I observed a Tai Chi class last week (yang style) and the Sifu was doing some push hands or “dynamic push hands” He was lined up in front of the student with the student basically pushing against the Sifu and with a twitch the student went reelling back 15 feet stutter stepping all the way. I must admit it looked pretty fake so I asked one of the students about it and he said that to him it looked fake as well and he was skeptical but you have to go through it to understand it. He said it felt like pushing on a brick wall then having thrust down on you. Maybe I could say it was fake if only one student was doing it but there were about 6 or 7 that were pushed and I know not all of them had to be crazy. I asked sifu about it after the class and I told him I was having a hard time understanding and he said that since I have only a certain knowlege bank of western views that I wouldn’t be able to understand, which I could agree on. I asked if he would demonstrate on me but he wouldn’t saying he doesn’t do that anymore only 10 years ago when he was trying to get students. Needless to say I was a little bummed.
So I guess my question is can anyone shed more light on this and maybe some experiences that they had with someone of great skill. maybe stories of people who were skeptical like myself but went through aa actual demonstration and was convinced otherwise?
I would also like to ask if anyone knows of sifu’s in the NYC, southern connecticut area with the ability to produce this sort of power?
Has anyone had any training with Sifu H Won Gim or a Master Ahn in NYC?
Also check out this web site and let me know what you think http://pathgate.org/
I know there are a lot of questions and I really appreciate any help
Many teachers teach a certain odd stepping pattern that they indicate will disperse the excess Qi that was used to move them.. as someone employees that pattern after being pushed it looks pretty weird.. my personal experience indicates that the odd stepping pattern is a tool to engage the student to focus their attention on dispersing excess energies, not necessary.. but, it can be effective as a reminder to focus and disperse.. i do not use that particular method to disperse excess energies, rather i favor frequency modualtion, bringing the frequency of the excess energies into coherence with my own, then incorporating as much as i can and grounding the remainder.. basically, directing the push into the ground, using my physical being as a conduit to let the energies flow through me..
Thanks for the reply TCB. I think my problem is that I’m a skeptic and I need tangable proof of what I’m seeing. I do want to believe it because a lot of it sounds and looks great but I’m having a hard time finding someone to prove it to me physically. Of course the only way is really to just go to a class and train with a great sifu. It makes me wonder about some sifu’s claims that 12 people couldn’t budge him but those 12 are students of his so maybe they don’t want to embarass him?
Let me ask you, has there been a time when you were skeptical about things you’ve seen that were perhaps a little out of the ordinary but have been proven to you? Could you give me some examples or examples from people you know?
Indeed i have seen things that defy reason.. some wouldn’t demonstrate on me personally, they said “only my students know how to handle such power”.. (skepticism intact)..
WCC Chen: At 71 yrs. of age set me on my butt with a “1 inch punch”.. and i mean he dropped me, my teeth slammed together and i was down.. His ability to control a push-hands exchange is beyond belief..
Cai Song Feng: elderly gent asked us to take our strongest, most stable stances, and one by one went around the room and pushed us over with almost effortless grace, it felt like we were doing the pushing when we were only trying to stay balanced..
Ms. Cui Lu Yi: healed a ripped groin muscle in one 45 minute QiGiong session.. the event doctor advised 6 months of recovery with surgery likely.. the inside of my thigh was deeply bruised from groin to knee.. the day after Ms. Cui’s treatment i was hiking with her and others in the Olympic Mountains..
GM Chan Pui: Daily expressions of things beyond description.. i trained with him for 12 years, he never ceased to amaze me..
Master Wong: cryptic local personality, Wu stylist.. “can’t touch that”, uncanny energy skills.. it’s like pushing a mist, until it pushes back.. then, just look for a place to land..
There’s more, but.. i’ve experienced enough to know there’s much more to this game than brute strength or refined mechanics.. there a verifiable body of evidence that energies can be enhanced and manipulated to produce remarkable results.. and, as a species, we are just beginning to understand the potential..
What you have witnessed is called “Wai Jing” or “Feeding the Energy”; What it means is that to achieve such spectacular bounces, the students have to “feed” the Sifu properly. Every bit you see is real, the Sifu would need to have very good skills to manipulate the energy, but at the same time the student must be skilled enough to feed properly. The Sifu would not be able to bounce you in such spectacular fashion if you are not trained in feeding, hence the reluctance in doing it on you.
At a beginning level, it is important to feed each other during practice, so you can feel what you are doing and see whether it would work; but in real life, no one would feed you during a real fight so one must move forward to learn to do the “Ting Wen Na Fang”. I have seen a teacher whom the students feeding him so much that when he went to do a demo on strangers in front of a large crowd, he couldn’t throw them at all and he was booed off stage!
With my students, when I get them to practice a certain technique, I would always start of feeding them, then when they get the hang of it I would feed them less and less until they can execute the technique without feeding at all.
That post of yours answered all my questions i was going to ask you when we hook up. I dont know how would your bouncing people go if someone wasnt given you any tension would you move in closer and past there centerline?
If someone is not giving you tension, usually it means he/she is not trying to harm you anyway so may be just walk away.
If someone is not giving you tension but you want to neutralize the threat anyway, I would probably go for the An or Cold Jing kind of techniques.
If you still want to bounce them, you and still do it if you do the “Wen” or “asking” properly. This is done by “tapping” them to cause them to momentarily “freeze up” or expose their centre. If you then do the “Na” or “lock” properly you can still bounce them.
In any case, the upward/outward bounce is usually more useful in competitions and practice. In real life, unless you bounce them into a brick wall or something it is pretty much pointless. I still like Ray Pina’s quote the most (Ray, it is from you, right?) “the ground is you friend, it is always there for you.”
Cheers,
John
p.s. oh, I could move pass the centre line and “displace” them… but then anyone can do it and not that much skills required. So it is not a bad idea.
Sifu H Won Gim is the real deal. He has studied for many years with Gin Soon Chu and is one of his family disciples. He has some very good power. I know at one point in his training, he used to practice the long form 15 to 20 times a day. I have seen him up close and personal. You couldn’t go wrong with him to guide you.
Also, as far as dynamic pushing hands go, I was very suspect myself and thought the students were faking, but boy was I WRONG!! Once I was finished with the form corrections, I finally got my chance to push with sifu (if I wasn’t impressed I was going to quit that night). What I felt was a brick wall! Nowhere to go but backwards! With little effort, I am hurled backwards trying to catchup with my feet from falling over. My two cents.
In real time fighting, it is not difficult to pull off especially if the opponent is committed; hence the saying “lure the opponent in, let him hit the void, close then immediately open (Yin Jin Luo Kong He Ji Chu)”.
In my opinion, bouncing off an opponent is only part of the many things you can do to the opponent. The single most important thing to do is to do the “Tou” or “penetration” of your Yi Qi properly. It is like “electricuting” the opponent all the way to their power source, rendering them ineffective in carrying out their techniques. Then you can manipulate them whatever way you want.
Some of the demos of Masters/Senseis just standing there while the student/opponent trying every technique without success is very often because of the Tou. What comes to my head is a footage of O’Sensei Ueshiba being pushed by a big fellow, he just stood there as if nothing was there, then just flicked and the big guy ended up on the ground.
IMHO, from my limited experience. Internal martial arts like Tai Chi, Xing yi and Bagua has to be ‘experience’ to understand and believe.
Just looking at demonstration alone, you will almost always leaves wondering, ‘can that be real?’. But once you are on the receiving end in a non-coroperating situation, you will believe.
Note: this only applies if you are going up against ‘real/qualify’ teacher.
Thanks for sharing your experiences I always love reading about stuff like that you are quite the sage.
Dr Fung:
Thanks for the great explination of what I saw but now I have more questions. I guess you call what I saw “bouncing” and from what I gather it has no martial application except for demonstrations. Then you mentioned “Ting Wen Na Fang” is this basically what I saw but with a more martial application? The reason I ask is because I have seen video’s (check pathgate.org) where the attacker wasn’t feeding the Master yet he still was being throw off a lot.
Thanks to the rest of you for your inputs I’ve learned a lot
i think Ten Tigers commented on how he goes to some of the downtown parks in NYC and watches the old timers push. Have any of you guys done this? Which parks could I go to check this out?
I’ve been pushed by Vincent Chu and was slammed right to the ground!! I’m a believer! There are still some guys around today with real power and not just technique. After all, without the power, technique doesn’t stand on it’s own.
from what i understand, it’s a question of timing. also, as dr fung said, the partner has to “feed” you something. in our classes we have an exercise where you take a few steps up to your partner with the intention of pushing them over. the partner’s job is to try and bounce you out. kind of hard to do correctly, but when it’s right, the bouncer feels like he didn’t do anything, yet the bouncee goes flying. really fun.
I wouldn’t say that… it is kind of like a Karate person demonstrating breaking bricks; it is pretty useless if you can just break bricks because bricks don’t hit back, but then if you take the power into fighting applications then it is useful. The Bouncing is the same.
