very cool clip, Dr John im going to have to meet up and feel this for myself, be gentle darling! 
Seriously looks great but im still not convinced this stuff can be used when its striking time maybe at wrestling might be a better range?
Garry
Not just at wrestling range, think what happens when you block a strike or someone block your strike. If your timing is good, you can apply this principle at that moment of contact and cause your opponent to either lose some balance, open up his defense a bit more or flat out fall down. Again, timing is the key.
Yeah maybe in theory wise, but im talking all out fast punching not an amature drunken SOB. Blocking an arm isnt very hard but bouncing people off like you see in the clips against full on street attack or maybe these guys should enter UFC and Pride and bounce them around the cage?
So far Dr John has said the best answer ive been waiting for and the student has to feed the teacher the energy and correct structure. Thats why i want to visit Dr John so he can show me i just dont believe that people can pull this off whilst being punches and kicked by someone that can throw fast, powerful and lots of combos. There are guys that dont do much grounding and are very mobile on the feet so soon as you want to bounce them they are shifting and level changing.
just my thoughts!
Garry
Hello Garry,
Yes, just like all martial arts, the success in executing a technique depends on the difference in level of skills between the two (or more) fighting. Lets say the if Tai Chi guy is way better than the opponent, chances are the Tai Chi guy’d be able to toy with and bounce the opponent around. But if the level is similar or the opponent better then this becomes difficult. Same as, a strong opponent may knock out a low level Tai Chi guy in one punch, but if the Tai Chi guy has adequate skills he may be harder to get knocked out.
People often forgets that there are some very handy moves in the Tai Chi form very usefull for fighting; so before we get to YLC’s level and do everything purely internal thinking that we can bounce anyone around, we better learn our moves well! For example if someone comes in with combo punches the 7-Star Fist is perfect as a counter IF you know how to use it properly. And learn to take punches because anyone who had been in a real brawl would know there’s almost no way you can walk out unscratched.
If anyone’s been on the receiving end of Garry (and manages to stay alive to tell the tale :p), he/she will soon learn that theory and push hand competitions though important and useful, one should not get tunnel visioned and live in dreamland.
Cheers,
John
Hi John,
By the way i didnt get to see the article in the newspaper, thanks for the message all the same.
I am all for understanding this force of bouncing people be it push hands or straight up combat. But mostly the demo’s of bouncing is usually and mostly from push hand and using there students. I am hoping that it can be pulled off like in push hand demos as we just saw in a reality street fight. My hardest problem coming from an full contact kickbioxing and kung fu training is that non of the internal people ever fought not they needed too but to give them more credit non did.
Then seeing all this bouncing it kind of bugs me, although like i said dr Johns info made me think why and how it can happen with timming. But fighting isnt always pushing and to pull off sticking and following then bouncing would be a huge feat in itself.
Now, i myself also do internal kung fu but not Taiji, we have sensitivty as well push hands but fighting wise i cannot see it working unless i get into a wrestle or clinch type game. Strikes i will be countering back with strikes and takedowns, etc.
I do not know if i made sense and please dont take my words out of context cause i am just asking questions cause i sont see it working for real when it gets to the itty gritty, unless the oponent is useless.
Garry
Greetings..
The toughest part of Taiji applied to combat is becoming comfortable with the Taiji as your preferred system.. most of us have multiple arts in our history and if we have a history of success with an external art it is difficult to abandon that success in favor of the apparent softness of Taiji.. I know that i struggle with this issue continually.. even when my Taiji sets up a perfect condition for a damaging release of Jing.. the old familiar option for a grinding hook or a shin to the jaw seems to just leap out there..
So, we train from slow and controlled to increasingly fast and robust use of strictly Taiji applications.. what we have found is that this permits us to validate the effectiveness through increasingly intense situations.. sometimes, people over-apply.. that too much of a bounce simply puts the opponent in a different but stable position.. a controlled bounce will put the opponent in a neutral state, like when we walk on a curb and begin to lose our balance, there is that interval where we are caught between falling and not falling, frozen or struggling to maintain balance.. this is the “open door”, when serious damage may be directed into areas where the normal level of protection is busy trying to recover from the neutral state.. neutral implies lack of offense or defense..
Bounces such as this are available at almost every point of contact, but.. one of the most misunderstood aspects of Taiji, its footwork, will usually defeat its own application.. use of the “shuffle”, like in fencing, is a remarkable tool for effecting the bounce and keeping the range necessary to take advantage of the neutral state.. assimilating Aikido’s footwork into Taiji principles of rooting and Song would make for a great next evolutionary advance of Taiji’s development.. but, that’s another topic.. hmmm.. TaiKiDo..
Anyway, even a swarm of punches can be up-rooted and neutralized by absorbing into a Peng state, like punching a trampoline.. the opponent feels the building resistance as the intercept deflects the power-line.. then, like the bounce of the trampoline, the intercept returns with the retracting punch to apply froce near the opponent’s center.. shuffling to the outside of punch, Peng expands into the opponent’s space and another shuffle sets the advantage and application.. The first shuffle moves the target from the follow-up swarm and establishes leverage, the second shuffle applies force to the leverage and stabilizes the application..
Note: keep the weight in the arch and ball of the feet, not the heels.. the heels are round and do not provide stability.. the heel should be firmly grounded but not weight bearing, the heel braces the arch and ball.. this will also act to unify the mechanics and afford more relaxed responses..
Anyway, just some thoughts.. Be well…
There is another school of thought on this that says that when you “learn to take punches” you are, in fact, teaching yourself to…take punches. You engrain the habit and that’s not what you want to do. You want to engrain the opposite. The other person punches may touch you but you might want to reconsider learning how to “take them”.
Greetings..
As far as “taking punches” goes.. when i was fighting competitively (a looong time ago), my Sensei would put a towel over our heads and we would take fighting stance.. then, we would wait.. he would put a fair punch to the head, pull off the towel and we would have to defend ourselves from another fighter.. we couldn’t fight until we were good at recovery.. i respect this aspect of my training greatly, it helps keep the adrenaline dump in check..
WCC Chen takes a serious punch like nothing happened.. he relies on the Connective Tissue Ststem to disperse the energy throughout the body.. this discipline will save your butt and it will empower you to maintain your position and stability.. people too concerned with avoiding the punch will not be effective, they will keep the range in the opponent’s favor.. the close range will elude them..
The fight is Yin and Yang, give and take.. if you can’t take your game will be unbalanced..
Be well..
Thanks for the feed back guys!
I hope to see this type of energy used in a cage fight from a Taiji fighter and using just Taiji to win. I do understand leverage but i do know that if someone is a skilled counter puncher and fast footwork can easily cancel you out.
Bob,
Can you tell us more about taking punches to the connective tissue system, how it works and is it a type of soft body as we do soft body training taking punches not like a traditional iron body type shaolin conditioning?
Regards
Garry
I train with John Ding, so I’m part of the same YSC lineage (through Ip Tai Tak rather than CGS or CKH though). Hopefully I can shed some light on this. I don’t believe YSC ever called it Dynamic Pushing Hands, it was just a label that was applied in recent years to differentiate it from the softer training.
Dynamic pushing hands is not about bouncing people out - it’s about developing structure and peng jin. You give your partner as much pressure as his structure can bear, then at the point of failure your partner sits back into the rear leg and then pushes you out. The better you get, the more relaxed you are - you let the opponent load your structure for you and then throw them out when it suits.
At higher levels the partner runs straight at you and applies pressure very quickly and hard - this is only useful once the springiness has been developed in the first place. Then you start playing around with redirecting the incoming force rather than just receiving it - it’s good fun but can be hard on the body. The moment of contact is very good training for learning to instantly disrupt someone’s root.
The person applying the pressure is also developing peng jin - there is an attritional version of this where you just press against each other. It’s a great way to convince people that muscle isnt everything - it is not possible to hold the pressure without a sound structure.
So in summary - Dynamic Pushing Hands = training Sung under pressure in order to develop peng jin. Just dont go for more pressure than you can manage or you’ll get injured.
The shuffling backwards and everything is, imho, usually fake. You can tell the difference between someone who has been thrown backwards, and someone who is throwing themselves backward. I’ve been thrown 15 feet before by John, but I wasn’t shuffling, I was trying to stop myself falling backwards so my arms were windmilling and I was trying to get my feet under myself.
I sometimes train this with my teacher where he throws me against a wall - we started off with a crash mat, but now I just get the wall. It’s good training.
Hope that helps
Paul
Greetings…
Hi Garry: The Connective Tissue (CT) system is a membrane-like structure that surrounds every cell in the human body including bone cells.. it is much like colagen, the tendon and ligament structure.. the CT is very similar to liquid crystals in structure and ability to change and adapt in real-time.. it is quicker and stronger than the neuro-muscular system.. it communicates continuously through every cell and organ by changes in vibrational frequencies.. it is a good “key-word” search on google, read many of the hits and you will begin to understand its importance.. additionally, it effects structure and speed through a physics principle of “Tensegrity”, another good Google search.. Tensegrity is the principle that flexible pole tents use to maintain shape and strength, like a geodesic dome..
When someone learns to activate the CT system, and it’s pretty easy.. you can actually relax into it and be more stable, stronger and bypass the neuro-muscular time differential, responding like the tent does, receiving pressure at one point and distributing it throughout the system which actually strengthens the system.. If you do the work and research the key-words, you will see that there is an amazing structure within the mundane body that explains much of the “soft-power” the ancestors spoke so highly of.. They didn’t have the science to explain it, but they knew through trial and error that something quite amazing happened when they adjusted their structure to activate what we now know as the CT..
The force of a punch, anywhere, can be distributed throughout the body and neutralized into the ground when the CT is active.. it is like trying to punch a balloon.. When the CT is active the body is a single dynamic “Tensegrity” system, utilizing the applied energy to strengthen the over-all system.. this is directly applied to “bouncing”, except we by-pass the sensory/muscular delay and trust the CT to do its thing in real-time.. “Peng” is a misunderstood reference to activating the CT system.. muscles are a secondary support system to the CT, necessary for mechanical structure.. muscles fill-in behind the CT’s real-time establishment of shape, direction and force..
Rick Barrett has written a brilliant book on this subject as it applies to Taiji, it is: “Through the Western Gate”.. Rick uses Western science to illustrate the wisdoms of the Taiji ancestors.. the book is readable, practical, and verifiable in practice and research documentation.. The CT is the link to the mystic aspects of Taiji legends, but now it is understood from a Western practicallity.. A companion book, “The Field”, by Lynn McTaggert, supplies even more hard science that illustrates the potential for “apparent” Mysticism in the mundane.. The title of Rick’s book is a reference to the door/gate/barrier that western culture has guarded against anything not quantiafiable by measure and method.. There is a system, CT, that can demonstrate most of the matters usually considered as fanciful myth.. we have simply forgotten how to access remarkable tool..
Be well..
TCB
As usual, a great read. Would you know of any websites or books that talk of the legendary Qi masters of old besides the books mentioned above?? Thanks
Best
Excellent definition of DPH! You are correct that Yang Sau Chung only called it pushing hands, but since so many of today’s Yang practitioners aren’t aware of the practice (very sad), which is why Chu Gin Soon gave it the name “dynamic” to distinguish it from what you usually see people playing with today. I am often thrown back with my feet shuffling underneath me trying to catch up with my upper body, but little by little you get stronger and stronger with very little external muscle usage. Load the spring baby!!! 
Greetings..
Ronin22; Go to your local book store and look in the MA section.. or go to the magazine rack, mags usually have some historical stuff that is interesting.. Below are some links that help with understanding the CT system and its importance to our Art.. i hope it helps..
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/lcm.php
http://theamt.com/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=143
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3987/is_200212/ai_n9153887
http://www.uvm.edu/~annb/faculty/PDFs/C747.pdf
http://www.sportsmedicinenaturally.com/
http://www.backfixbodywork.com/Athletic_Performance_Enhancement_Pt_2.htm
http://www.healing101.org/somaticrecall1.html
http://biotensegrity.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=16&Itemid=29
http://www.idealspine.com/pages/AJCC/AJCC_new/July2001/pdf/Murphy%207%2001.pdf
Be well…
WOW, thanks Taiji Bob great info and i do appreciate it muchly! More to study on now, Dr John be prepared for a call to meet up my brother!!!
Garry
Thanks a lot TCB this looks awesome! Appreciate it!
Best
Hello Paul,
I agree with most of what you wrote, but in my opinion only…
What I find is not so much a matter of training the structure to bear a lot of pressure in a relaxed manner, but to train the structure to dissipitate as much incoming force as possible so that the structure does not have to bear much pressure at all. Hence there is a saying “Li Bu Guo Wan” meaning the opponent’s force must never penetrate pass your wrist.
It is also NOT about relaxing and using minimal muscular effort; but to shift the mind set from using muscles to using the naturally expanding Yi Qi for Peng (kind of correlates to the CT theory TaiChiBob talked about) through relaxation. So the moment someone thinks about “I must use minimal muscular effort” it is already wrong, as one should think more along the line of “I’ll forget about the body and let it be.”
Cheers,
John
Hi John,
Your last comment is true but a beginner still needs a way of understanding softness right rather then just let it be! I mean there are many factors behind neutralizing or redirecting, grounding strikes or incoming forces.
Are you free next monday or tuesday?
Garry
Hello Garry,
You’re totally right! This softness business is so **** hard to explain, so **** hard to understand. It took me many years before understanding it myself. The thing is, when someone is using muscles to push back, no matter how soft he/she is still using muscles to push back. The classics talk about “Bu Diu Bu Ding” which mean “no opposing, no retreating.” When one opposes using muscles, no matter how little, is still opposing. When one yields physically (the floppy noodle thing) no matter how little one is still retreating.
Cheers,
John
p.s. I can only do Wednesdays. I’ll SMS you.
Hi John - fair comment. I think it true to say that one needs to develop a structure before letting go within it - that delightful ‘release’ when you’re not doing anything other than letting their force go through you is not something a beginner can attain without going through stages of relaxation. At some point something in their mind goes “aha” and they stop working in the context of ‘minimum’ and start working with ‘emptying’. It’s a tricky one to teach - my students can feel the difference when I show them, but it hasnt helped them to “get it” (I’ve only been teaching for two years though, so they’re very new to this)
Cheers
Paul