i was just wondering if anyone knew much about sun lu tang’s style of tai chi.
it’s really hard to find out much about it, other than it uses high postures with narrow steps and round arm movements. also, it uses bagua footwork and xing-yi kicking.
Yongnian
Plastic squirrel wrote:
i was just wondering if anyone knew much about sun lu tang’s style of tai chi.
it’s really hard to find out much about it, other than it uses high postures with narrow steps and round arm movements. also, it uses bagua footwork and xing-yi kicking.
-I wouldnt say it uses much any bagua or hsingyi but more concepts. there is the san ti posture and some bagua pivot type stepping. the sun taiji is alo called active stepping taiji and has a step up with the pushing. This is seen in another style of taiji from Yongnian (home of Yang and Hao style)called Guang Ping style. It is not part of hao style that sun learned from hao Wei Zhen. I dont think it uses hsingyi kicking, it has jump kick like guang ping style and chen style. I have sen the sun style taiji done really fast, it was quite unusual.
Been doing it for years… It is very different and interesting.
Also called Kai He Huo Bu Taijiquan (Open Close, Fast step…) due to the quickness of the steping and the use of the Open/Close technique and its unique Single Whip.
So…what was your question idea…?
GLW
I read someplace (I’m old - I don’t remember where!) that to completely understand Sun style TCC, you first needed to have studied Sun’s xing yi and bagua.
What are your thoughts on that?
Thanks.
Respectfully,
OldFatBaldGuy
Hi,
well, I think someone who’s studied Sun’s bagua and xingyi will say that it definitely helps to have learned them if you want to use Sun’s tjq. If you’re primarily interested in health, then it isn’t necessary to know the other arts. However, it would still help if you learned from someone who was familiar with all three. BTW, I don’t believe in the idea that it’s necessary to master each of the arts to be proficient. If you’re not willing to invest years of study, without the hope of mastery, then it’s unlikely you’ll master it anyway. Anyway, I think it does help to understand Xingyi stepping, particularly Sun’s system. But, the stepping in Sun’s tjq is not like his Xingyi stepping. Oh, there are a few similariites, but not in general. However, the principles are similar. Knowing Sun’s bagua would probably help, too. But, imho, it’s not about knowing the forms/animals; it’s about learning the bagua method of application. That’s always going to be complicated to learn. In Sun’s book on bagua, the people who wrote the introductions say it took them 20-30 years to begin to understand. If you read the text, you’ll see why. However, Sun Lutang always emphasized “practice” as the means to understanding. So, that’s where I’m gonna go now.
Respects,
Esteban
“I have seen the sun style taiji done really fast, it was quite unusual.”
why is it unusual? unusual in a bad weird way or unusual in a good weird way? any details you guys can give me would be great.
one thing that i forgot to ask is this: i’ve heard that bagua has footwork that allows you to move around your opponent very quickly. i’ve also heard that the sun style uses the principles of bagua footwork. does sun style have the quick and agile footwork that allows you to circle around your opponent?
thanks 
There are some very subtle places where Sun Style is more like Xing Yi…others where it is more like Bagua and still more where it is like Wu style with more movement and animation.
I can see where a person with no background in any other stye would have trouble with it if they started with Sun and did not know Bagua Xing Yi or any other style.
From my experience, The Xing Yi parts are the hardest to get if you do not do Xing yi. Not impossible but harder. There seems to be more of an affinity between the melding of the Bagua flavorings to the Wu style Taijiquan.
The places where Xing Yi comes out are alos more obvious than those for Bagua. For example, the instances where you do the twisting step forward into a Pi Quan type of strike…or the San Ti stances …
However, to get it down, you really need to do Taijiquan as well.
I have a classmate who learned it at the same time I did. I am familiar with Bagua but not too familiar with Xing yi. I also focus a lot on Taijiquan. Now, after several years, when you see us do it together, I have more twisting and coiling in moves, more subtleness and he has more driving linear power and is more direct. This is as I would expect because he does Xing Yi while I do the evasion and twsting types of arts…
An interesting note…Sun style has no hooking hand.
Also… I think one of the hardest things for me to get at first was the spirit. It is more lively and you have to deliberately let that spirit come out when doing it as opposed to showing a calm manner with say Yang style…and still maintain that Taijiquan air.
fun…
“one thing that i forgot to ask is this: i’ve heard that bagua has footwork that allows you to move around your opponent very quickly. i’ve also heard that the sun style uses the principles of bagua footwork. does sun style have the quick and agile footwork that allows you to circle around your opponent?”
Good question, and I’ll go out on a limb and say that Sun tjq uses no more nor less of the evasive strategy than any other form of tjq. So, the answer is yes and no. For example, most tjq styles (I think) have the movement “fair lady threads shuttles.” The (4) movements, taken as a whole (at least two 180 degree turns) can be seen as “evasive” and can be used to get behind one opponent or to deal with more than one. But, in general, Sun tjq would use tjq strategy. Though, of course, it’s possible to adapt any of the arts to any strategy, in practice.
Respects,
Esteban
Sun Tai Chi
Are there any thoughts from anybody about the Sun style? What’s it like? How’s it different from the others?
I don’t hear much about it, maybe there is a site you could lead me to that can help me learn about it?
When you win a fight, who do you think feels worse, you or your opponent?
Nice…but very different…
Where to start…ask away and I will try to share what I can.
You live in East BAY?
If you like, you could visit Sifu Lams school in Sunnyvale, CA. About 50 min ride for you, I think.
Take a private or just go ask questions.
“Brilliant general”! “When the dirty bastard finds out, he’ll return with his men–then we kill the all of them…” www.kwoon.tv
GLW
Well basically, the way of fighting… i guess in a way. Like how Chen is more explosive, lower stances, Yang is more linear, and based a lot on holding the ball.
It’s not the alphabet that will write your essay, but the applied letters that do. If you aren’t satisfied then proofread until it is better.
Ex: It’s not the forms that will win your fight, but the applied techniques that do. If you don’t like them then change them until you do.
Don’t mind the bottom I was trying a new signature out.
UcE,
well it all boils down to the stepping used. Sun Style employs the follow step seen in Xing Yi. It is much more mobile and quick than other styles of Taijiquan.
For example, Chen has power but it is reeling in nature and then explosive. Sun redirects then quickly comes in to strike.
If the stepping is not quick and sure…and coordinated with the hands, Sun style will never work.
The tempo of the form alludes to this. It has a broken rythm but not the obvious breaks you find in Chen.
There are many postures that really have limited martial use…like the signature Kai He (open close) but then the brush knee engages the opponent and then moves to redirect and strike…a totally different rythm than other styles.
Then, just when you are into the linearity of it all, you can switch and use some of the swimming steps and techniques that came from Bagua…OR in the need for splitting or chopping power, there are those elements from Xing Yi.
Even the neutralizing methods of Sun depend heavily upon the stepping. For example, the roll back from Sun uses a step back then a follow step forward to press… So you would never absorb without moving and never move without attaching and following back in to the opponent.
Thanks GLW, that helped me understand Sun style better.
GLW - that’s great, thanks! I’ve been looking for info on Sun Taiji for ages now, but it’s not particularly common. Can you recommend any videos/VCDs, or even better, good instructors in Canada?
Do you know any Sun style specific foundational exercises or drills? I assume they practice push hands - an emphasis on moving step?
Thanks again.
I haven’t seen a really good book or video…or even VCD on Sun style.
I have one or two (books, video, and VCD) for reference but if I had not learned it already, they would only produce a person with no understanding.
In many, the postures are hunched over and not lively enough. The connection or understanding of the meaning of the move is not there.
Then you have one camp who hate the Competition routine and others who don’t. Having touched both, I can say that while the routines are in a different order, the only real difference between the two is that the competition routine has a higher level of difficulty by adding the juming kick… some say this is not traditional but since when do traditional arts not have the ability to take a jump that all have and a kick that all have and combine them into one move?
As for Canada…possibly Helen Wu in Toronto…I know she does Chen and Yang well…and maybe Wu and she ma know Sun…but everything she does is excellent…
Competition and other stuff
As I can say that I’ve felt Sun Jian Yuns skill personally. I can also comment on her feelings of the competition routine.
As I remember, a female wushu champion demostrated her version of SUN to her. She was not impressed. She did not authorize that version.
Upon testing the champions skills and touching hands with her she said it was not correct.
Also, I agree with almost everything that GLW said. Except one little thing when he ended with this:
“So you would never absorb without moving and never move without attaching and following back in to the opponent.”
“NEVER” is too constricting, pending on your skill level and the energy given to you by your opponent, you can never say “never”. That is to all MA.
Also, their is NO broken rythm to the form. NONE, that would be contrary to SUNS idealogy when creating the form. He was in his later years, i.e. fighting days long since over when he created this form. I would argue that, one of his aims was too create a form that MORE closely followed the TC principles. For example, you will not find a 50/50 heavy stance in the set. Always Yin/Yang, one foot alive and one more empty than the other and switching.
I am not claiming mastery of this style myself, but my sifu is authorized to be the US Sun Style Reseach Institute by Si-Gung herself. So i am relating things that were translated to me/us.
GLW, is also correct when he refferences bagua and Xing Yi. W/O understanding in these as well, you cannot hope to master SUN TC. Albeit, though SUNs Bagua and Xing Yi can be different to other styles too.
“O”
“Brilliant general”! “When the dirty bastard finds out, he’ll return with his men–then we kill the all of them…” www.kwoon.tv
Are there no videos at least of Sun Jian Yun performing her father’s form? I have Sun’s book on Xingyi, and she seemed very open and willing to share when commenting on him and his style of Xingyi. Surely, there must be at least a demo with her on it.
“I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust.”
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice
There is a VCD of Sun Jianyun doing the routine. Due to age, here postures are not what her father’s were. The widow’s hump that many women get as they age is quite apparent in her. The problem is that the stoop that is a physical problem for her is evident in her senior student who demonstrates in the video with her. (seen this before where the student copies the older teacher too closely and does not know where age or experience has changed the technique)
As for anyone who merely learned the routine, OF COURSE they would not have it…how surprising. You train only form and do tons of them and you don’t get the real essence of the style and you can’t use it. The video on one routine from China has one of the team members doing it…there are noticeable problems with it but you now see many people in the US copying that way of doing things because “It was on the video and that MUST be the way to do it”
By NEVER I may have overstated…in Taijiquan, the extremes such as NEVER and ALWAYS are rare. Also, all rules get broken from time to time. I was speaking in general principles.
The stepping indicates that the issuing and absorption of power are intimately connected with the legs and steps and work through the waist…no big surprise there since that sort of applies to most Taijiquan…but it is put up front in the form.
As for the rythm…it is NOT the same as Yang style (Yang Chengfu routine) which I would consdier unbroken and steady. There are really no breaks in any Taijiquan routine I have seen…but there are changes in rythm. My first year of Sun practice came after many years of Yang…It did not feel right because I tried to apply the same cadence to Sun. As soon as I realized that the spirit and cadence was different, I began to understand the ideas it held.
It appears to me that much of this cadence comes from Bagua with a littel Xing Yi thrown in and then softened by Wu/Hao style…