Styles made from animal's movements...

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

Someone mentioned how mantis style was invented by copying the movements of a mantis and the footwork of an ape in the “total solo training” thread. It made me think of this.

There are a lot of styles made from watching animals… snake, mantis, tiger, crane, etc. Why would a human say “I want to fight like that animal?” Animals don’t try to copy the movements of other animals. A bear isn’t going to go “I want to fight like a tiger.” So why would a human assume that the best style of fighting for a human would be to copy the movements of a non-human?

Also, animals fight instinctively. What does instinctive (ie. with no training) human fighting look like? Probably a bunch of wild swinging, right? If instinctive animal movements are best for animals, why aren’t instinctive human movements best for humans? Granted, I know this theory can’t be tested because no one will ever really be able to teach an animal fighting techniques, but still.

Alright it’s late and I’m tired and I’m just wondering about these things. What do you think?

2

what’s amusing is that humans fight better when copying animals??!

fighting like humans is not good? :slight_smile:

the animal influence is mostly spirit and one or two special moves that most likely would have been useful even if not modeled after animals ex a grab “becomes” and eagle claw or tiger claw

in practice most systems are in fact just human movements organized in something more effective than blind fighting during a fight without structure

the styles that still retain an animal name mimic them the most. the ones that don’t might have originally started off more similar but moved away from it. for example hung ga, pal mei are tiger influenced (the former having crane too), wing chun is snake and crane

3

what’s amusing is that humans fight better when copying animals??!

fighting like humans is not good?

Of corz it’s not. Humans are the biggest pusseys in nature :smiley:

But seriously, I think it’s not so much the movements that are being copied than the ‘spirit’ of the animal in question. In a tiger system one might watch a tiger crashing down on it’s prey. Pretty impressive.

4

What I find quite ironic is that people copy animals to learn to fight, and then peope copy (learn from their shifu) from people to learn how to fight like animals!

I forget the name, but there is an internal style which consits of some qi gong and meditation, but no pre set moves, I guess that would be the closest to humans fighting instinctivly from a set style.

5

there’s even a butterfly style. I guess they fight with two towels :smiley:

6

There are a lot of styles made from watching animals… snake, mantis, tiger, crane, etc. Why would a human say “I want to fight like that animal?” Animals don’t try to copy the movements of other animals. A bear isn’t going to go “I want to fight like a tiger.” So why would a human assume that the best style of fighting for a human would be to copy the movements of a non-human?
Because animals are given all the weapons they need to fight and survive. Humans, on the other hand, are not born with natural weapons, exceptional strength, or agility. We must train these things. What should we train? Well, the things that work for other animals, for starters.

Also, animals fight instinctively. What does instinctive (ie. with no training) human fighting look like? Probably a bunch of wild swinging, right? If instinctive animal movements are best for animals, why aren’t instinctive human movements best for humans?
Because humans evolved along a different path. We didn’t reach the top of the food chain through brute strength; we got here through superior intelligence. Our strength lies in group cooperation and tool-making. In a fist fight, these attributes mean virtually nothing.

7

I think I have told my strudents this a trillion times.

People did not copy animals. They inspired by them. An animal style was not constructed out of just imitating how an animal hunts/fights entirely. The bulk of a style comes from common martial arts techniques that was incorporated or changed to suit that single inspiration.

Lets take mantis, since it was brought up. I believe that Wang Lang didn’t take more than two moves from watching a mantis fight. Something like mantis hooking its prey. However, through his own martial arts training, that two moves inspired him to constructing a million others. Those new techniques bascially have nothing to do with the insect. His own techniques were modified to suit the priniciples of the those new techniques. Hence, developing a new style

My sifu told me this and I love its logic. If a tiger is able to perform “black tiger steals heart”, it there any possibility at all that humans would have become the dominant species in the world ?? I mean, we would never have had any chance of moving beyond the stone age !

~The tiger jumps at the human, in an act of deperation, the man try and trust at it with a spear. Just as it was about to penertrate the troat of the tiger, the tiger’s left claw deflect the spear away downwards while the right moves in and tears the face off the human.
The other humans were shocked, but just as they were about to close in to take revenge for their fallen warrior, the tiger stands up on it hind legs into a classical cat stance with a tiger claw posture, ready to defend himself. The human’s didn’t know what to do. But the anger of their dead friend still burned in them. They charged anyway.
Sad to say, the humans were never heard of again~ :smiley:

8

~The tiger jumps at the human, in an act of deperation, the man try and trust at it with a spear. Just as it was about to penertrate the troat of the tiger, the tiger’s left claw deflect the spear away downwards while the right moves in and tears the face off the human.

..Meanwhile, the trusted spear now penetrates the Tigers crotch due to the idiotic downward block.
The End

9

The tiger was in mid-air moving downwards towards the man. So the angle of approach means the spear can’t hit anything

DUH !!!

10

:rolleyes:

11

:slight_smile:

12

I don’t know that much about animal styles really but I have learned a system that uses “animal forms”. In that style their were 5 animals and you would choose one anamal to mainly focus on first. Perhaps a certain animal “type” technique is useful as a defense against one animal “type” technique, but not the appropriate response against another. Like maybe a mongoose has the advantage against a cobra but not a tiger. So I think animals in a system could possibly be looked at like formulas. Also, having different animals in a system might be a way to determine what attributes would be the best to develop for different individuals with different body types or attidudes. Maybe not.

13

"Why would a human say “I want to fight like that animal?” "

The Human sees something useful in the fighting of That animal. If a person had to fight either a Human or an animal~ several at least might prefer to fight a Human. If you can reason why they would Not prefer to fight an Animal you then can see why a Human might would-like to “fight like that animal.”

“Animals don’t try to copy the movements of other animals.”

But they might learn them to counter them or use the nature of the creature to it’s advantage. If I learn that a snake strikes with its head, I can stay away from that end. Also, they only strike within certain ranges. Helpful notes perhaps for best outcome interaction.

"A bear isn’t going to go “I want to fight like a tiger.” "

…because they fight similarly already with similar skill levels. Speed, Power, claws, teeth, vocal startling at least.

“…So why would a human assume that the best style of fighting for a human would be to copy the movements of a non-human?”

Because for the eons ago, about which is a starting point for fighting like animals, animals were dominant one on one fighters against humans perhaps.

Mimic the winners. Humans mimicked animals in perhaps several ways that made the mimicking beneficial. They mimicked tooth/fang and nail/claw/talon in using edged and pointed tools eventually making knives–still a useful mimicking of animals today.

Speed and power were not across the board readily matchable; treachery was used to counter skill. Even today learn how the system works, learn the nature of the target..perhaps not copy the animal, yet learn the animal/target for effective tricking, trapping, deceiving…

Striking first and from a distance (pouncing/striking (of snakes) was translated into long reach (poles, throwing, launching weapons (slings, bows (catapults), guns (and their ammo)).

Mimic animals foraging. One of the better ways to without risk find out what to eat (besides each other)~.

Mimick animal stealth for hiding hunting. Note: Humans instinctive skill is run/hide. Human children the world over will run and hide as game before fighting. ~ Perhaps, if so.

14

"What does instinctive (ie. with no training) human fighting look like? "

It’s based on the individual 's experience be cause they mimicked whatever the whatever. People didn’t fight because they were the food early on. Food learnd to run. Food learns to hide. Food learns I’d better get really good at what I know or learn something new and try it, because I have no clue what to do besides run/hide. Initial Human instinct. Some might say/think.

15

Humans are tool using critters. Instinctive fighting for humans means picking something up and using it - throw or swing.

16

You can search for my thread,I think I called it “Do animal styles make sense?” (cannot recall the exact spelling).
It has some garbage to it but much more answers than this thread,which is basically similar in content.

Animals don’t try to copy the movements of other animals.

That´s not necessarily,entirely true,depending on our context.
That´s my contribution.Ha!

17

Humans are tool using critters. Instinctive fighting for humans means picking something up and using it - throw or swing.

ding ding ding!

CSN has taken the correct and rung its bell…

If there isn’t anything around, I think you’d have to look at sorority chicks fighting to see what true instinct is all about.

18

That’s why I watch sorority chicks fighting.

19

No doubt.. me too.

20

Ironfist,
I think the person who said that mantis style was created by copying a mantis is incorrect.
The oldest stories say he was inspired after watching:
-A mantis defeat a cicada.
-less well known version is that he saw a mantis raise his arms against the wheels of a cart to stop it’s motion. No fear attitude.

Old mantis has little in common with the insect as far as appearance is concerned.

Living in Taiwan I have seen many instances of wild dog’s in combat.
It is very inspiring to say animals in action.
I think this goes for other styles to a certain degree.

Also, animal descriptions are poetic and usually not meant to be taken literally.
Animal terms are used to describe people or events which may have some parralel with that beast. This holds for general society as well as MArtists of old.

So, for example, someone with a powerful grasp would be described as grabbing like an eagle.
Someone who preferred to rake the face might be known as a tiger.
Someone who added much falling might be called a drunken fairy(oldest verifiable Shaolin style).

So, in conclusion, it is an over simplification to say that someone watched an animal in combat and created a style copying that animal.
It would be closer to say that their certain skill was described in terms relating to that animal which was thus passed on to disciples.