Do any of you guys actually study the movements of animals in conjunction with you animal-based forms? For instance, I primarily study Wing Chun, which is based on the snake and crane. Yet, when I see these animals on the Discovery channel, I don’t sit up and pay special attention. I’m more inclined to gain martially from watching a lioness attack a zebra. When I spar, I don’t feel connected in any way to a snake or a crane or a fox. I feel that the movements I practise are actually very different from the animals themselves, they are really basic movements of humans. Have any of you Northern Mantis practicioners actually captured and played with a mantis? Do you 5 animal praticioners really imitate animal movements, or is it just a flavor for your human-being based movements. All opinions are welcome as to the usefulness of imitating specific animals in the martial arts.
We all know that copy cats are not going anyway. So there is a hugh difference between copying/imitating a move (of animals) and understanding the principle behind the move. That’s the homework that has been missing in McKwoon these days. Anyway, if you are going to do a straighten out double tiger claw in a extra elongated bow and arrow stance - the Wushu tiger in their Nanquan, you are definationly not going to get any fighting principle at all. But hey that’s Wushu for ya!
Yes, I haven’t found the spirit of the animals, nor do I intend to do so. Tell me why I should. A human being also attacks when cornered, so I’m looking for something beyond being ferocious or having fighting spirit.
Thanks
-FJ
Which came first the animal-name or the technique?
In other words did the hand technique, flat fist strike exist and people noticed it looked like a leopard? So they gave it the nickname?
Or did someone see a leopard’s movement and make a technique to copy it’s movement?
I tend to think the first scenario is probably more accurate. Although, you will here lots of stories about people watching animals and suddenly becoming inspired to create a new martial art. It gives there art a mythical quality.
I think to understand a technique the best thing you can do is watch your Sifu and not the discovery channel.
I guess I watched to many kungfu movies. I actually bought a small python and watched when it bit it’s prey, I analized the movement and used it to help some of my snake techs. I do the same thing by watching animal planet when there are any of the various 5 animals. I noticed somthing kinda odd about lions. I was watching a ufc on of the last ones that was on in september and there was a BJJ guy who kept “lying down” when his opponent got close hoping he would follow him into a trap. I thought this was a stupid move but later I was watching some female lions kill a water buffalow and it did the same thing. The opponent charged and the lion “layed” down and grabed underneath to the throat and killed it. I guess the point is fighting is more similar between us and the animal kingdom than you think.
i think intent, spirit, and presence is largely part of why animals are imitated in kf, but perhaps it also has to do with mindlessness and mind set.
when you become the snake you lose your self in its essence.
as far as i understand it the ultimate goal is to be a dragon, which has it’s own movements and nature, but is also the nature and movements of all animals at once.
perhaps you are liberated from the need to imitate anything at this point and have truly found your own natural movements.
fa_jing, what have you to be angry at/upset about? Someone stole your seat in the movie theater. So of course being Human you can exhibit the shake the finger technique. Might be you could use the awesome (sarcastic) You shouldn’t do that yell. Or the Please get out of my seat or I was sitting there yell. Attacks when cornered yet no longer hunts or kills on a regular basis.
Humans grew-up in a world with more, bigger animals than are common place today~. The attack when cornered that is Human is to yell and try to scare off. You do not have to rely on the desperation, accidental naturally Human way. There are experts and masters of the hunt and the kill. Their techniques have been around since before Humans. It is likely that what you think of as Human ways of fighting are an amalgamation of milenia of bits and pieces. Humans are lazy by nature (among other things). They took what least they needed to get by and added that to their repertoir of Scare-Off and Run-Away.
You should learn the animal ways because without them you don’t have any thing. With them you hone the mists of their basics at pureness of kill and Live The Human allows you todilute the Kill to tailor to scare-off, teach a lesson or hurt but not more than necessary.~
So, your saying that humans don’t have instinctive defensive fighting abilities (but do have hunting abilities), the ancient tactic was to frighten away any attacking beast with a yell, so it was necessary to copy animals to learn effective fighting strategies. Since animals’ fighting styles don’t change in just a few thousand years, I imagine that observing the traditional fighting animals may provide insight into the root of human martial developments. Out of curiosity, have you gone back to the animal and identified any specific techniques? Do you feel that an animals fighting style is automatically well-rounded? Like, I’ve got the blocking with the wing part of the crane, now I need to find the equivalent to flying and scratching with my feet? Often multiple animals are combined to round out thuman fighting styles. Is there any guide to mixing animal actions together? Also, should the movements be imitated so that the appearance is similar, or should the result be what is similar. Being that we can’t talk to the origenators of animal styles, I’m curious as to the process that goes into this.
Thanks for your comments so far
-FJ
Well seeing how my style “8 step praying mantis” was invented after a famous master was beaten. I would have to say mimicted from watching animals. It was when he sat in the woods sulking he heard a rustle in the grass and watched a praying mantis fighting a ciciada. after that he realized that not all animal styles had to be named after what man feared but which animal was the most fericious. You see if you were an ant you could lift 10x your own body weight. try picking up a car, So again before the praying mantis humans named fierce fighting styles after what THEY were afraid of.not what nature showed as the hunters hunter, So yes I would agree that man observed animals and their survival and mimicted it for themselves.
When one is truly intune with his animal sytle it is then the spirit of the animal shows in the man, not before. So it is not the copy cating the spirit. but the movements.
As one can see by watching a master monkey stylest he appears to look more like the monkey then a human. I have seen my sifu do a form that made him look like a bug. However it is not until mastery can we truly understand the nature of the style.
I agree and disagree EARTH DRAGON. Some movements actually DO look like a movement from an animal. But It is more the spirit that you are supposed too go after. That’s what I thinks. I mean, how do you otherwise explain the Dragon style or a Dragon form? How do you copy the movements of a Dragon? No, it is the spirit of the dragon u are after.
I think I read that in northen kung fu you strive for the spirit of the animals and in the southern styles it’s more too look like a animal. Think I read it somewhere. I do south but the spirit aspect is taught.
“Out of curiosity, have you gone back to the animal and identified any specific techniques?”
When I see Kung-Fu being done I Identify movements that could be associated with an animal. I do this when I see people interact or associate and work.
" Do you feel that an animals fighting style is automatically well-rounded? Like, I’ve got the blocking with the wing part of the crane, now I need to find the equivalent to flying and scratching with my feet?"
Basically, it is my whatever that whatever animals’ capabilities are they tailor them to suit as many needs as they find need to–staying withing the confines of their abilities, they can do almost anything.~ I find a great resemblance to what I’m saying in the super characters of D C Comics. The flash has one capability, Speed. Being fast and having the strength to be going for quite a while and the endurance to withstand the frictions and pressures of his ability of Speed he catime travel seemingly/effectively teleport and effectively be in two places at once. Batman got a belt and a mysterious past. When he needed some skill we learned about his passed or found out what that compartment or new compartment on his utility belt was…Joker and penguine convert mere Smarts into a nifty lot of interesting ways to got rick or catch or kill Batman…I’m looking at these and thinking of Manhunter and Marvel’s Daredevil and thinking that they have lots of related skills but I hope that yoyu can see them as initially limited with a few and they broadened them or supplimented/complimented them. Dogs can jump, but they only jump as high as trhey’ve had to~after their younger days.
In using animal in Kung-Fu you don’t necessarily use the whole animal. But the flying part of the crane would be smoothe movements that eventually look graceful, then eventually become powerful through that grace. Scratching with tyour feet would be balance of a cat stance–varied movement while standibng on one foot wiht the other leg while near perfectly balanced.
" Often multiple animals are combined to round out thuman fighting styles. Is there any guide to mixing animal actions together? Also, should the movements be imitated so that the appearance is similar, or should the result be what is similar. "
The image is what is similar so that you can always get the same result. I’ll PM you or post on a guide to mixing animal actions together, later.
"Being that we can’t talk to the origenators of animal styles, I’m curious as to the process that goes into this. "
I’ve always thought of it both ways. Some things you try to get into the spirit of the animal, some you mimic their moves. Take the broadsword, it is in the spirit of the tiger. To do a form or fight with the sword, you should try to act like a tiger running after it’s prey and eventually dealing with it. Or like with snake fist, you have strikes with the fingertips that shoot out like a snake striking at it’s prey. Also, some of it is where the power is generated etc.
clawing techniques–animals with paws or claws; sweeping arm motions–animals with wings or a fifth limb (tail, trunk, extra leg(s)/arm(s); Speed–fast moving animals, predetors attacking, prey retreating; Power–the moment of an attack; Kicks–animals known for kicking, or named for the potentcy of the kick (poisin spitting snake), have a skill with their legs (cranes stand for long periods, horses buck and kick), something to rationalize the technique with the animal style (tiger tail kick); punches–are named after descriptive attitude or/and to tell howto ponch or what type/style hand/part of arm to use.
This same guide type goes for all descriptive names, theoretically. In drunken boxings, a techniqueregarding a wine/tea cup has the hand formed as if holding such a Chinese cup. And holding jars have the arm rounded.
I would respond to posts or say someting on mixing and matching.~
What about the use of weapons? No animal uses tools, but instead has it’s own weapons- the teeth, the claws, horns, a boa constrictor’s body. For someone that practices an animal style for empty-hand fighting, are the weapons simply extensions of the empty handed moves, like the knives in Wing chun? Or do you say, now I’ve got this weapon, this sword now becomes the beak of the crane, or this pole is the tail of the tiger?
Just some ideas, I have no extensive experience with weapons. To me, it seems that it would be even harder to emulate animals using weapons, because at least with the emtpy hands, we still have two arms, two legs, a spine, like most of the animals we are dealing with. I’m sure there are exceptions to this. I’m focusing more on the mechanical interpretations of the animal’s movements, not so much from a spiritual perspective, which doesn’t need much explanation.
-FJ
For the most part, weapons are not an extension representing the animals weapons. One uses merely the body and movements to represent the animals’ weapons.
"I’m focusing more on the mechanical interpretations of the animal’s movements, not so much from a spiritual perspective, which doesn’t need much explanation. "
felines, serpants, primates are used for footwork.
Insects, felines, aves, serpants are used for hand types
Dragon and Horse and primates and aves are used for body positions~
