[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1098677]It is the self governance aspect that causes many of the problems, shortages, and brain drain.[/QUOTE]
You have it backwards. If a doctor decides to give free or reduced price care to patients, the line at his office will be longer than the doctor who charges the market value for his services.
Why certain people feel they can just eliminate the Law of Supply and Demand in order to solve economic problems is beyond me.
[QUOTE=BJJ-Blue;1098689]You have it backwards. If a doctor decides to give free or reduced price care to patients, the line at his office will be longer than the doctor who charges the market value for his services.
Why certain people feel they can just eliminate the Law of Supply and Demand in order to solve economic problems is beyond me.[/QUOTE]
Correct. My father-in-law is a general practicioner. He only charges $35 for an office visit, and as a result he has a very, very large practice. He also has about $2 million in his retirement account.
You can be successful AND be affordable. Most just know they don’t have to reasonable because the demand is so high that people will pay more just to be seen quickly. And it’s not just welfare cases that crowd the offices…you’d be surprised at how few physicians actually accept medicaid-type patients.
[QUOTE=BJJ-Blue;1098689]You have it backwards. If a doctor decides to give free or reduced price care to patients, the line at his office will be longer than the doctor who charges the market value for his services.
Why certain people feel they can just eliminate the Law of Supply and Demand in order to solve economic problems is beyond me.[/QUOTE]
You’re like a sith, always dealing in your absolutes. lol
WTF has it got to do with capitalism?
The fact that you can’t get past that mere aspect of the medical process is stunning!
Medical care isn’t about and really shouldn’t be focused so much on money. I think that is a mistake that causes fatalities.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1098692]You’re like a sith, always dealing in your absolutes. lol[/QUOTE]
Because its true. It is what it is. You may not like, or agree with, the Law of Supply and Demand, but it’s still a huge factor in economics you cannot just legislate away.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1098692]WTF has it got to do with capitalism?[/QUOTE]
If you can’t see how the Law of Supply and Demand relates to capitalism, you are more ignorant about free market/economic principles than I thought.
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;1098691]Correct. My father-in-law is a general practicioner. He only charges $35 for an office visit, and as a result he has a very, very large practice. He also has about $2 million in his retirement account.
You can be successful AND be affordable. Most just know they don’t have to reasonable because the demand is so high that people will pay more just to be seen quickly. And it’s not just welfare cases that crowd the offices…you’d be surprised at how few physicians actually accept medicaid-type patients.[/QUOTE]
Ask him what his biggest expense is. If he doesn’t say malpractice insurance, I’ll be stunned.
And it’s worse for surgeons. And that all because of the trial lawyers. And since the Democrats get millions and millions from trial lawyers (and even draw candidates from them like John Edwards) you know they will not enact tort reform, which is badly needed to keep costs down.
[QUOTE=BJJ-Blue;1098732]Ask him what his biggest expense is. If he doesn’t say malpractice insurance, I’ll be stunned.[/quote] Something like $150,000/year in insurance fees. He always fights malpractice lawsuits, though, out of principle, even though it’s cheaper to settle in most cases. He’s beaten two or three since I’ve known him.
[QUOTE=BJJ-Blue;1098729]Because its true. It is what it is. You may not like, or agree with, the Law of Supply and Demand, but it’s still a huge factor in economics you cannot just legislate away.
If you can’t see how the Law of Supply and Demand relates to capitalism, you are more ignorant about free market/economic principles than I thought.[/QUOTE]
If you can’t see what it is we are talking about here, and how it is not about how a capitalist market works, then I leave you to your ignorance in which you may delight whilst you wallow in it.
We are talking about professional medical practice. Not what it will cost to remove a tumor.
Can you break from your constant diatribes about the value of a dollar please? BTW, mine is worth more than yours. Does that make me superior to you now that you have some weakass useless dollar that lacks the buying power of my lowly canadian buck?
see how irrelevant that is to the conversation?
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;1098750]Something like $150,000/year in insurance fees. He always fights malpractice lawsuits, though, out of principle, even though it’s cheaper to settle in most cases. He’s beaten two or three since I’ve known him.[/QUOTE]
Were the ones he beat frivolous lawsuits?
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1098755]If you can’t see what it is we are talking about here, and how it is not about how a capitalist market works, then I leave you to your ignorance in which you may delight whilst you wallow in it.
We are talking about professional medical practice. Not what it will cost to remove a tumor.
Can you break from your constant diatribes about the value of a dollar please? BTW, mine is worth more than yours. Does that make me superior to you now that you have some weakass useless dollar that lacks the buying power of my lowly canadian buck?
see how irrelevant that is to the conversation?[/QUOTE]
Of course free market principles and economics are relevant. We are discussing costs, so they are huge factors here. Let’s try it this way, how do YOU think prices should be determined?
And I didn’t say anything about the value of a dollar in this conversation. Where you got that from is beyond me.
[QUOTE=BJJ-Blue;1098762]Were the ones he beat frivolous lawsuits?[/QUOTE]
I don’t know the details, only that he thought he did nothing wrong, and apparently the courts decided in his favor.
[QUOTE=BJJ-Blue;1098764]Of course free market principles and economics are relevant. We are discussing costs, so they are huge factors here. Let’s try it this way, how do YOU think prices should be determined?
And I didn’t say anything about the value of a dollar in this conversation. Where you got that from is beyond me.[/QUOTE]
lemme put it this way.
demand is HIGH!
Supply is available, but not met, because doctors don’t want to live in isolated areas where their services are in Demand.
so, there’s your huge factors as already stated once if not a couple of times here.
We are also talking about Canada, so the whole Doctoring scenario is quite different here.
Also, I think it is important for Canadian educated doctors to stay in Canada for a given period of time before they take their GP and migrate on down to hollywood to botch up some skin jobs on the overly vain.
It ticks me off when someone immigrates here to Canada for an education, gets it and gets it subsidized and then moves to the states to make money instead of staying and helping or even moving back to his/her country from which he/she immigrated to help them with his/her newly minted medical education.
anyway, again, up north demand is high and there are not enough doctors supplying and it’s not because they aren’t available, it’s because they don’t want to go help there.
so, yeah, there is a problem with that.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1098777]Supply is available, but not met, because doctors don’t want to live in isolated areas where their services are in Demand.[/QUOTE]
Are there some sort of price controls up there? Like limits as to what doctor’s can charge for certain procedures, that sort of thing?
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1098777]We are also talking about Canada, so the whole Doctoring scenario is quite different here.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. And one of the big differences is when our rich people get sick they stay in the US for treatment, while when your rich people get sick they often come to the US for treatment.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1098777]Also, I think it is important for Canadian educated doctors to stay in Canada for a given period of time before they take their GP and migrate on down to hollywood to botch up some skin jobs on the overly vain.
It ticks me off when someone immigrates here to Canada for an education, gets it and gets it subsidized and then moves to the states to make money instead of staying and helping or even moving back to his/her country from which he/she immigrated to help them with his/her newly minted medical education.[/QUOTE]
Well the easy solution would be to stop subsidizing people’s education with taxpayers money. But since you’re Canadian I bet you think that’s a horrible idea. Make them pay for it themselves or get student loans they must repay in order to fund their education.
Or you can make it more profitable to practice medicine up there and the best and brightest doctors wouldn’t leave Canada to come here. They leave Canada for a reason.
Although I must admit, you are on to something here. You are noticing that just because a Government gives people money for nothing, it doesn’t mean that those people are grateful enough to do the ‘right’ thing in return. They just take, take, take and when it’s time to give back, they find a way to get out of that part. It’s one of the reasons socialism always fails.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1098777]anyway, again, up north demand is high and there are not enough doctors supplying and it’s not because they aren’t available, it’s because they don’t want to go help there.
so, yeah, there is a problem with that.[/QUOTE]
If you pay them enough, they will work up there. Mooyingmantis also tried explaining that to you.
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;1098768]I don’t know the details, only that he thought he did nothing wrong, and apparently the courts decided in his favor.[/QUOTE]
Texas has a bill in the Legislature that’s basically a ‘loser pays’ bill. The trial lawyers are fighting it tooth and nail. I believe these types of laws are necessary to keep costs down in MANY industries, but sadly they can be abused. Of course if the trial lawyers wouldn’t file frivolous lawsuits in the first place they wouldn’t be having to fight bills that are written to stop frivolous lawsuits. If you refuse to clean up your own messes, don’t complain about how somebody else cleans them up.
I’d bet my bottom dollar if bills like this pass in his State, his malpractice insurance premiums will come down. And once his operating costs come down, he can pass those savings down to his patients.
[QUOTE=BJJ-Blue;1098780]
If you pay them enough, they will work up there. Mooyingmantis also tried explaining that to you.[/QUOTE]
No, no they won’t. In fact, they can get paid MORE!
They won’t go. Our northern regions are under served by medical professional.
I don’t think I need to remind you medicine is mostly socialized in Canada. Pay scales for Doctors are pretty high.
A GP can make a million a year if he works for it here too.
If a doctor is good and provides good service, he will get a high caseload and that is where the money is.
Pharmaceuticals are not free, dentistry is not free in any form, holistic services and preventative medicine is not free, artificial limbs are not free but can be subsidized by charities and often are. Ambulance rides are not free.
What is paid for by your taxes?
Base salaries, all non-elective surgery, extended hospital care, all treatment within a hospital and in some cases, long term drug therapies that meet a criteria.
So, you can’t really think of it in terms of pay scale being the issue. It’s an ethical issue here. And for what it’s worth, only stupid rich people that want elective surgery go to the states for it. they do it because elective surgery you have to wait for. So some millionaire goes and get’s his face lifted? Fine, I don’t care, you’re wasting good doctor time for others. Go pay moron. lol
It’s a completely different paradigm and even thinking that it’s a mere paradigm shift to behave like you is wrong. Not to mention, your system sucks! I can guarantee you that no one wants an american style system up here.
No one wants to sell their house because their child faces misfortune that will put the whole family in the poorhouse and that happens with regularity int eh american model…so no thanks, you go ahead and keep that piece of crap medical system of yours.
When it’s only for the rich, it’s useless for the other 99% of the country/world.
Good for you for being rich, but that doesn’t make you better or more deserving.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1098788]No, no they won’t. In fact, they can get paid MORE!
They won’t go. Our northern regions are under served by medical professional.[/QUOTE]
If a job pays enough, someone will fill it. It’s that simple. You couldn’t pay me enough to fish crab in the Bering Sea, but it obviously pays some people enough to do it because the job is getting done.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1098788]And for what it’s worth, only stupid rich people that want elective surgery go to the states for it. they do it because elective surgery you have to wait for. So some millionaire goes and get’s his face lifted? Fine, I don’t care, you’re wasting good doctor time for others. Go pay moron. lol[/QUOTE]
"Newfoundland and Labrador Premier Danny Williams is set to undergo heart surgery this week in the United States.
CBC News confirmed Monday that Williams, 60, left the province earlier in the day and will have surgery later in the week.
The premier’s office provided few details, beyond confirming that he would have heart surgery and saying that it was not necessarily a routine procedure."
Last I checked, heart surgery wasn’t elective surgery. And why did he come here? It’s either one of two things; either he thinks American doctors are better, OR the wait in Canada is too long. Which one was it in Mr Williams case?
Source: (complete article)
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2010/02/01/nl-williams-heart-201.html
[QUOTE=BJJ-Blue;1098906]If a job pays enough, someone will fill it. It’s that simple. You couldn’t pay me enough to fish crab in the Bering Sea, but it obviously pays some people enough to do it because the job is getting done.[/quote] YOu are wrong. But it’s because of your closed minded way of thinking. I don’t care if you offer me a million dollars, I won’t take the job if it is not what I want to do. Seriously.
"Newfoundland and Labrador Premier Danny Williams is set to undergo heart surgery this week in the United States.
CBC News confirmed Monday that Williams, 60, left the province earlier in the day and will have surgery later in the week.
The premier’s office provided few details, beyond confirming that he would have heart surgery and saying that it was not necessarily a routine procedure."
Last I checked, heart surgery wasn’t elective surgery. And why did he come here? It’s either one of two things; either he thinks American doctors are better, OR the wait in Canada is too long. Which one was it in Mr Williams case?
Source: (complete article)
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2010/02/01/nl-williams-heart-201.html
Crikey? :rolleyes: This is your choice of all the rich canadians flocking down to teh states for medical treatment?
Dude… Williams didn’t need to go to the states. He knows it and has admitted as much. He never stated why he went and he is a grandstander and a shoe waver.
So F*ck Danny Williams for being a showboat idiot newf who does stuff like this for unknown reasons. I can tell you straight, he didn’t have to go there, didn’t need to go there and would have received the same quality of care and surgery here in Canada.
But it’s showboat McGee, so screw him, he is welcome to waste his money and time chasing rainbows all he likes.
I think we’re all in agreement that you just can’t legislate against stupidity. Danny is another example.
So, who else ya got? This was super high profile because he was a premier at the time and by the way, he has a huge beef with federal government and likely did this as a “just because” so that people like you can post that link. LOL 
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1098908]YOu are wrong. But it’s because of your closed minded way of thinking. I don’t care if you offer me a million dollars, I won’t take the job if it is not what I want to do. Seriously.[/QUOTE]
I’m not closed minded at all, I just know this makes no sense. You have a job that needs to be done, and it supposedly pays well. So why isn’t it being done?
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1098908]Crikey? :rolleyes: This is your choice of all the rich canadians flocking down to teh states for medical treatment?[/QUOTE]
No, I never said he was the “choice of all” of anything. You said “only stupid rich people that want elective surgery go to the states for it” and I refuted it by giving one example. So you were wrong, but I know you’ll never admit it.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1098908]Dude… Williams didn’t need to go to the states. He knows it and has admitted as much. He never stated why he went and he is a grandstander and a shoe waver.
I can tell you straight, he didn’t have to go there, didn’t need to go there and would have received the same quality of care and surgery here in Canada.
This was super high profile because he was a premier at the time and by the way, he has a huge beef with federal government and likely did this as a “just because” so that people like you can post that link. LOL :p[/QUOTE]
So the guy went to have VERY expensive surgery done here that he could have had done free in Canada just to prove a point and give me ammo in an Internet debate???
Man, Casey Anthony’s defense team is better at making excuses than you are.
One more thing, can you source your allegations that Mr Williams admitted he didn’t need to come here for surgery? 
[QUOTE=BJJ-Blue;1098955]I’m not closed minded at all, I just know this makes no sense. You have a job that needs to be done, and it supposedly pays well. So why isn’t it being done?[/quote] YOu are not self aware apparently. hmmmmn.
No, I never said he was the “choice of all” of anything. You said “only stupid rich people that want elective surgery go to the states for it” and I refuted it by giving one example. So you were wrong, but I know you’ll never admit it.
YOu deciding about it means exactly nothing. You gave one publicized example and it’s not even a good one as I explained. But you would never in a million years admit it because you…well, you’re basically a troll here. Still waiting for ONE relevant kungfu thread form you.
So the guy went to have VERY expensive surgery done here that he could have had done free in Canada just to prove a point and give me ammo in an Internet debate???
He’s a showboating idiot, yes and I’ll say it to his face and have written same to him personally whilst he was Premier. the guy is a goof. Period.
Man, Casey Anthony’s defense team is better at making excuses than you are.
One more thing, can you source your allegations that Mr Williams admitted he didn’t need to come here for surgery?
Go to the same place that you pulled that last story from. Enjoy our CBC? It’s government funded propaganda you know. lol
I don’t know casey anthony. Is this an american of repute?
also, just for you:
Two Canadian heart specialists have come out to say that there is no way that Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams needed to leave the country to have heart surgery.
Wilbert Keon, a heart surgery pioneer in Ottawa said there’s “no question” Mr. Williams could have been cared for in Canadian facilities.
“He’s going to have to admit that when he recovers and has to face you guys.”
Arvind Koshal, a prominent Alberta cardiac surgeon, said virtually all heart procedures available in the US are provided in Canada.
“The optics are very poor, especially for people who are proponents of the Canadian health-care system”
Williams did this not because he couldn’t get the surgery here. Nor would he have to jump line or wait fro such surgery.
he did this for political reasons and to take a pot shot at our Prime Minister Stephen Harper (who I don’t care for, but hey, he’s PM and so be it).
But seeing as this is Canadian politics, I figure the only thing you can see is USA USA USA and so on. :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1098964] You gave one publicized example [/QUOTE]
That’s all I needed to give to prove you were wrong. You said “ALL”, so I only need one example.
Ready to admit you were wrong yet?