<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rogue:
Glad no ones been hurt, but can you give me any biomechanical evidence that it’s better to hit with the lower three than the top two?
" _[/quote]
Rogue, your diagram, talking about where the wrist flexes etc is a red herring - what is important is alignment - i.e. not punching with a bent wrist. A vertical punch with the top two knuckles impacting usually means the wrist is bent - that’s bad.
With all due respect guys, present your proof and arguments. So far saying “it aligns better” and that you can do pushups that way(a static situation) is not proof that in a fight the wrist will remain stable hitting a moving target of varying density.
So far OmegaPoint, Rich Mooney and myself have presented arguments against, backed up with why we believe this (even with diagrams 
), so far you folks have made statements that you don’t backup. Present your proof as I’d love to have another weapon to use if you’re right.
[i]Signed,
Rogue, Soke and Senior Grandmaster of Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Combat Chi jitsu Kempo Karate Do and Choral Society.
The only tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, “To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time." [/i]
Its NOT just about 2 knuckles…in WC or any effective Martial Art.
We don’t just strike with the 2 bottom knuckles, we drive the entire fist thru. People who focus on which knuckle(s) have to hit first are missing the point, its about proper alignment of the enire body, which is really what we’re striking with, certain strikes transfer this energy and power thru different parts of the hand, foot, body, etc. In a verticle fist, depending on angle, target, etc, the lower 3 knuckles are aligned and the entire fist penetrates/transmits force. If the strike is mostly hitting with the pinky knuckle then its probably just a superficial grazing strike anyway. If you slam that knuckle against a hard object you very well may damage it. If youre just thinking about it static with your fist all tighened up and knocking on a solid surface, then yes you i guess that could hurt your self…but thats not the kind of energy or strike we’re using. With proper conditioning you can transfer lots of power thru that part of your hand without damage. And we strike from many different angles with many different parts of the fingers, wrist, joints, knuckles, hand, elbow, shoulder, knees, shins, feet, etc, etc. Its all the same principle, not being all tight and ‘knocking’ on a person, jong, door, whatever, its relaxed, dynamic, explosive, and penetrating, using proper form, energy, physiology and alignment. More like a hollow point bullet blasting energy through. Its hard to explain these concepts quickly in person let alone in a short paragraph…thats why it takes years to develop this stuff, right?
When you use different strikes such as a horizontal fist (I’m not nessesarily just talking about Wing Chun now) then the physiology and alignment is diffent, youre not going to be aligning your fist the same way and the first part to make contact might be the index-finger-knuckle and middle knuckle, and you can transfer lots of power thru these too, its just a different strike with differnt alignment but the principle is the same.
With boxing gloves on its hard to not get tangled up if you try to stick to just verticle punches (which could be a bad idea anyway), to much big pad on the centerline and youre hands can get trapped easy and trip over eachother and i find it more effective to allow yourself the option to ‘float’ the elbows a bit and use vertical punches, or an angle somewhere in between, to get over the opponents defense, gloves, etc, especially when stiking to the higher targets, head, etc. You can still use vertical fist strikes effectively, especially to the body, but its more difficult to use some of the traditional WC basics that we would use barehanded or on the street. I believe thats at least part of the answer to why boxers started using more horizontal punches when gloves were applied, it evolved more into a sport as the equiptment altered the dynamics and possiblies and there became a more limited spectrum of what can shoot thru effectively.
A verticle fist IS inherently more solid a ‘platform’ in a static situation, just root in a stance, have someone in front of you push youre fist back towards you in the vertical and horizontal positions, and see how its easier to use more of your body and stronger muscle groups with your elbows down. So i think this is a good fundamental punch. Its a very important basic concept and tool for your arsenal. But I wouldnt say to only punch like that or that theres only 1 best way to strike, fighting is dynamic and when you develop youre fa jing and body dynamics, you can transfer good power from vertical fist, horizontal, etc.
Damn, now i’ve typed way more than i intended to starting off, but its a good question and a complex answer, that has more to do with transfering power effectively with your body, then worrying about lining up a certain knuckle, unless of course youre striking pressure point or small target, but then you wouldnt be using a basic straight vertical fist. Hope I put a dent in explaining this rather than just made the issue more confusing. I wish i could better explain this or demonstrate what exactly I mean.
-MutantWarrior
“Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failures…than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.”
-Theodore Roosevelt
well, for a start you could post a diagram that was relevant 
ie one of the skeletal system would be more appropriate to your argument than a muscle chart.
the radius does indeed line up best with the index and middle knuckles, but is this a good thing? if your bones are locked in a straight line transfer of force means your more likely to fracture something.
the wrist bone most often broken is the scaphoid bone (Torotra and Grabowski, Principles of Anatomy and Physiology, 8th ed.) this bone lies directly between the radius and index finger.
still, i’m sure if someone trains appropriately they can still condition themselves well using “top 2” knuckles.
WRIST) i speculate that the “bottom 3” fist helps diffuse the forces coming back into the wrist when punching, making it less jarring to the wrist.
KNUCKLES) as for the knuckles themselves, force is distributed over 3 not just 2, so if you punch properly there should be if anything less chance of damaging the knuckles.
in fact, in one of Mas Oyamas books he says karate strikes with 2 knuckles to get more penetration NOT to make it safer on the knuckles, but our senior disciple told me that when he met Mas Oyama a few years back, Oyama had to soak his hands every morning just to get them to move, and told him given his time over he wouldn’t train the way he had (of course i can’t PROVE that any more than i can PROVE i had sandwiches for lunch…but i did. tasty they where too, but i digress)
ultimately though, the proof is in the pudding, and the fact that my Sifu still had supple hands in his eighties tells me all i need to know.
if that isn’t proof enough for you, well…sorry.i really don’t care. scientific proof is not as important as my own experience, and the knowledge of those more experienced in these situations.
i wish you all the best though.
use whatever fist form works for you.
___________________________________________________________________________ “I’m just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!”
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fish of Fury:
“Oyama had to soak his hands every morning just to get them to move”
“ultimately though, the proof is in the pudding, and the fact that my Sifu still had supple hands in his eighties”
Good example of external -vs- internal methods of striking FishofFury, thats what I am trying to explain too! NOT just striking with a knuckle or two or three, but transfering your entire bodies energy through your point of contact, which CAN remain supple and be even more devestating. When we talk about ‘conditioning the hands’ we’re NOT saying to go beat them into horned deformities like some external ‘arts’. And then your hands are in better condition to grapple/apply chin na, feel your women up, all the other important things.
-MutantWarrior
“Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failures…than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.”
-Theodore Roosevelt
i agree MutantWarrior
in fact i think what you said is probably more important than what i posted IMO
i know when i first started learning finger strikes against solid objects(now THERE’S something to worry about anatomically ! ) the emphasis was not on precise alignment as much as on the feel/energy/expression of the move (and gradual conditioning of course)
“Its all the same principle, not being all tight and ‘knocking’ on a person, jong, door, whatever, its relaxed, dynamic, explosive, and penetrating, using proper form, energy, physiology and alignment.”
that sums it up quite well
in fact i’m inspired…gonna go attack my box of stones!
___________________________________________________________________________ “I’m just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!”
I was going to write something like “Do whatever works for you” but I figured someone would have a problem with that.
cxxx:::::::::::>
You’re fu(king up my chi
shut up ABandit.
i just have Verbal Diarrhoea of the Fish, and write page after page of crap…and you want to just say “do what works”
what’s wrong with you man!?!
___________________________________________________________________________ “I’m just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!”
Screw you man. What are you going to do? Slap me with a fin? Damn fish always swimming around opening and closing your mouth but you haven’t really got anything to say have you?
Fish, you stink!
cxxx:::::::::::>
You’re fu(king up my chi
“…the wrist bone most often broken is the scaphoid bone (Torotra and Grabowski, Principles of Anatomy and Physiology, 8th ed.) this bone lies directly between the radius and index finger.”
Fish, were T & G referring to punching or just making a general statement?
Also here you go, hope this helps you see the error of your ways!
Anterior view
Posterior view
This whole argument shows why I prefer to use open hand techniques. 
[i]Signed,
Rogue, Soke and Senior Grandmaster of Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Combat Chi jitsu Kempo Karate Do and Choral Society.
The only tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, “To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time." [/i]
much better rogue
T&G was general statement (statistics rock don’t they?)
scaphoid is the bone directly “beneath” radius on the left (in the anterior diagram)
all of which proves nothing which is kinda my point.(although i think my speculation about lining up the bones dead straight = lack of diffusion is worth considering)
proof is in the pudding (as you can tell i’m quite a pudding fan)
___________________________________________________________________________ “I’m just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!”
“T&G was general statement”
See how I caught that? I’m not an overpaid Systems Analyst/Consultant for nothing my Fishy Little Buckeroo!
“(statistics rock don’t they?)”
You know I’ve heard that 90% of all fights go to the ground.
Rogue strides off into the sunset triumphant once again!!!
Fade to black…
[i]Signed,
Rogue, Soke and Senior Grandmaster of Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Combat Chi jitsu Kempo Karate Do and Choral Society.
The only tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, “To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time." [/i]
“You know I’ve heard that 90% of all fights go to the ground.”
of course! 83% of all MA’s know all fights go to the ground (but there’s only a 40% chance of that)
___________________________________________________________________________ “I’m just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!”
i have used both fist the one with the firsrt two knuckles and the fist with the last three knuckels i find that both works reasonably well and both have equaly bad reasoning i have broke my middle knuckle punching with the first two knuckels and have had a boxer break with the last three i retrained my hands since then and use both fists and call the first two knuckles the yang fist and the lower three the yin fist making use of yin yang principals toward the fist :rolleyes:
matt bugg
43% of statistics are just pulled out of the air.
cxxx:::::::::::>
You’re fu(king up my chi
“43% of statistics are just pulled out of the air”
yeah, but only 92% of the time
___________________________________________________________________________ “I’m just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!”
anyway, thanks guys i had a good spontaneous afternoon of training inspired by this conversation (for some reason 
)
who said KFO was useless, and full of half arsed losers who do nothing but talk cr@p and never train!?
___________________________________________________________________________ “I’m just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!”
>You can’t obviously take a tank out with a sniper riffle<
Yes you can(with proper training).
Thats the key here,the ppl that don’t like the
lower knuckle punch don’t train it and I’m not going to get into the biomechanical evidence right now because I just buried a friend and I’m
fuggen tired!!
rogue-you are on the right path when you talk about the palm strike.
I’ve punched people in fights(not sparring) using the lower bone as support for the driving bullet(fist) per sae,it frigging works,full stop,end of story,
but not the end of my arsenel,its not the only pebble on the beach just as nothing is…
Crimson made some good points.
VingStudent made some good points
All of you did,but before you whip out your grays book on bones learn how to do the punch the way it was met to be delivered.
If you’re going to use a UZI sub gun and thats all you use to clear rooms,don’t knock a HK MP-5
if you don’t use it(all purpose,I like the HK).
Same thing with strikes,punch,palm whatever,I know what works because I’ve tried them all(except my nuke punch and I’m saving that one)
on pissed off moving trained and untrained targets that wanted my arse in a room temp sling.
They all work!!
IF YOU WORK THEM!!
END OF SERMON.
GOOD NIGHT LADIES.
PS>>>>>>>>I WILL BRING MY BONE BOOK TO CLASS THIS
WEEK FOR A POP QUIZ.