interesting Ky Fi, cos when i do that (i just did!) i find using bottom 3 allows me to relax, but big 2 i feel the strain within the hand (don’t worry though…i’m OK 
)
maybe again it’s what you’re used to?
i think fist horizontal or vertical also makes a difference (and vertical, bottom 3 knuckles really suits IMO)
___________________________________________________________________________ “I’m just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!”
Fish of F,
I’ve pretty much been training only Taiji for the last few years, so I’ll get more specific in regards to the Taiji fist I’m talking about when I’m doing that. The fist isn’t clenched at all—in Taiji we wouldn’t any tension more than necessary in the hand or fingers. The fingers are just kind of lightly, naturally turned inwards (and I’m referring to a vertical fist). My teacher has said that you should feel like you’re lightly holding a ping-pong ball in your fist. William CC Chen said he often demonstrated this by holding a raw egg in his fist, and punching through a board without breaking the egg. Maybe we’ll just have to agree to disagree, but IMO you can’t do this if you’re striking with the lower knuckles. Again though, that’s just Taiji—I’m not saying it isn’t effective in other styles.
Hey Rich Mooney
Thanks for all the details. I really couldn’t remember the complete facts about that break. I had a friend (am. boxer) who got that break. Also, my brother got that break in a street fight. You should have seen the x-ray.
For traditional kung fu go to www.taishingpekkwar.com
The the wrist is unstable when pushing against the lower three.
[i]Signed,
Rogue, Soke and Senior Grandmaster of Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Combat Chi jitsu Kempo Karate Do and Choral Society.
The only tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, “To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time." [/i]
my first two knuckels are so big from hitting walls and doors that i don’t think i could ever start hitting with the others. the pinky knuckle on my right hand is also enlarged from hitting (what i would call) wrong, so when i make a fist my ring finger knuckle looks like a missing tooth.
where’s my beer?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rogue:
The the wrist is unstable when pushing against the lower three.
[/quote]
No it isn’t.
no, it isn’t. i find it much more stable.
=================================
What we really need is chicks with a whole new kinda orifice - Fish
Sharky, I should expect this level of immaturity from you after seeing your post titled “Hm.” regarding the woman that lives next door to you. I think everyone who unfortuneatly read that post is a bit more ignorant now for doing so. - Spectre
All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.
well mr mooney if writing 50000000 words means your right then so be it.
do you mind me asking what style you do?
you see the thing is that i want to put on it without even trying it.
do you get my piont.
if i was the only one who thought this type of punching was the way to go then maybe you’d have a good case but seeing as though wing chun is the second most practiced chinese style(the first being tai chi) i’d say that there could be more to punching this way than you ay think.
i have never damaged my knuckles nor have any of my wing chun brothers & we use a wall bag filled with stones.
vts
Modern boxers use their own specific mechanics when delivering punches. The majority of their punches are not delivered with the elbow down and a vertical fist (although bare knuckle boxers use to fight like this…hmmmmm). Even with the vertical fist, the emphasis should be on the middle knuckle (and to a lesser extent, the ring knuckle). The pinky is the farthest removed from the forearm and has the least direct bone support for force coming or going to the ground.
Boxer’s fractures are common, but that is because most people don’t have training or understanding of proper punching mechanics using a vertical fist as opposed to a horizontal one.
Dzu
vingtsunstudent
I have to agree with you, I have been using this punch for 12 years or more and never had an injury. And yes, I have used it in the street. Though I do agree there is some conditioning done, as I feel should be done with any style of punch. I will add that this kind of punch shouldn’t be used in a hooking style punch and is only used by most people I know, as a straight line punch.
I told a story once on a post, where a boxing coach (who trained in the same gym as I did) asked me how I could strike the dummy with force and only using mostly the lower 3 knuckles without breaking them. Since just throwing a regular punch would be punish enough on the hands. He was actually kinda amazed and wanted me to teach his boxers this method. 
are you guys talking about the knuckles you use to knock on a door with?
“you can take my life, but not my confidence”
Jimmy H. Woo
It may feel stable but it’s not.
The reason that the bottom of the hand is less stable is that’s where it flexes from. Note the palmaris longus, the flexor carpi ulnaris and the flexor carpi radialis.
Flex your wrist in and watch how the hand turns. This also why when doing a wrist lock you push in on the bottom three knuckles.
Muscles of the hand and wrist.
You can hit with the bottom three but they will not have the stability of hitting with the top two.
[i]Signed,
Rogue, Soke and Senior Grandmaster of Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Combat Chi jitsu Kempo Karate Do and Choral Society.
The only tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, “To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time." [/i]
well, there’s entire styles that hit with the bottom 3, i’ve done it for many years and had no problem.
my sifu lived his entire life and never had a problem with it…
…so,
whatever.
___________________________________________________________________________ “I’m just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!”
Fish of Fury
Exactly my point.
Although I don’t punch with the bottom three, I’ve seen an awful lot of people who do, and, boxers aside, I haven’t met any who had received serious damage from doing so.
Perhaps there is something in the mechanics of their punch that negates the chance of injury?
Glad no ones been hurt, but can you give me any biomechanical evidence that it’s better to hit with the lower three than the top two?
[i]Signed,
Rogue, Soke and Senior Grandmaster of Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Combat Chi jitsu Kempo Karate Do and Choral Society.
The only tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, “To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time." [/i]
There’s punching and then there’s PUNCHING…
As an intern waiting to begin my first year of Orthopedic residency, I’d have to say that Rich and Rogue are more correct in their assessments of this age old question. You can punch with a hammer fist, with the middle-index knuckle, the middle knuckle of the middle finger or the last 2 knucles of the hand. These strikes along with most open-hand strikes are usually target specific though, regardless of style. Contacting softer areas of the body often doesn’t entail using great force, just accurate and proper tecnique.
If you want to punch with maximum strength and efficacy on harder surfaces of the body such as the face, mastoid process, occiput or what have you, the best fist to use is the closed fist. The strongest bone in your forearm is the radius. This bone not only supports the middle and index knuckles, but anatomically is on more of a direct or linear plane to these knuckles. This allows for maximum tranference of kinetic energy down the shaft of the radius and into the mid and index knucles. Thus, less force is dissipated along this straighter plane, and the result is a stronger punch. It also gives much better protection against direct force applied to these knuckles.
The ulna which is the smaller and weaker of the 2 forearm bones has less surface area to transfer the energy, and in the case of the pinky which is at an oblique angle to its support bone (the ulna) the bone is “free-floating” (for lack of a better term). Structurally, this makes them much less stable than your 2nd and 3rd digit knuckles. Additionally, when the fist is “turned-over” or cork-screwed, the last 2 bones of the finger fail to articulate, or connect, and this provides for even less stability.
In Chin Na, Aikido or Okinawan Tuite (Ti) many “Dividing/Spreading the Bone” hand controls and techs are done by separating the weaker bones of the hand with your 2 hands (the thumb and and last 2 digits), often in conjunction with twisting the wrist. In GJJ many defenses against a frontal choke or lapel grab involve trapping the hand with one of your hands against the chest at the wrist,and using the other to “find” the least stable finger bone to bend back. 9 times out of 10 this is the ring finger, which is similar to the pinky in that it is almost “free-floating”. The reason the even weaker pinky is not used is because it is often harder to gain maximum grip on the smaller finger. All of these traditional techs make perfect anatomical sense and are based upon empirical evidence and not assumption or personal opinion/experience. Yes, you can harden the last 2 fingers through years of striking and “iron body” techs, but at the risk of crippling yourself or causing arthritis.
If you train in a style like Wing Tsun that emphasizes striking with these last 2 knuckles and have found it to be an effective way to strike with full-speed and power, then more power to you. I think Taiji, the epitome of martial science, has it right. It just seems to make more sense to support a structure with steel girders rather than toothpicks. Plus, non-boxers are not immune to a “Boxer’s Fracture”.
Happy, safe and smart training…
OK, I’m going to state something so obvious it is stupid: HUMAN BODIES ARE NOT WALLS…if you fight walls often, then definitely you qhould avoid using your knuckles…any of them…there are different types of targets in the human body, each more suitable for the use of certain weapons against them…you won’t use a lower-knuckle punch on ANY target, but on selected ones and in a selected manner (I think about the sternum cannon fits in white crane, also called “heart-stopping punch”).
So for those who claim that people saying the lower knuckles can be used are clowns that should train more (they’ll recognize themselves), I say this: if you can’t aquire the right way to hit the right target with a lower-knuckle punch, YOU are the one that should go training instead of acting all smart.
So far I have not seen a WC, WT, or VT person repsond that way Crimson. I hear about bone alignment and feeling natural and upsetting the root(?) but never see any physical proof offered of the lower three being mechanically better or even safer. Let’s face facts, we do many things in the Martial Arts because some sifu or sensei tell us to, and some (many?) of them are clueless to how the body works.
[i]Signed,
Rogue, Soke and Senior Grandmaster of Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Combat Chi jitsu Kempo Karate Do and Choral Society.
The only tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, “To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time." [/i]
Rogue, I don’t know much about WC regarding the use of this technique…I just know that in White Crane we use it (as I said, to hit certain targets in a certain way), and that friends of mine practicing Xingyi are fond of using them…Maybe it’s me, but when I slightly flex my wrist, my lower knuckles align much better with my arm’s bones and I can do pushups on them feeling no loss of balance or incomfort at all…and this is the way the wrist is flexed when you jerk it to do that cannon fist thingie. For a lot of other punches, I’ll just use the two big knuckles, admitedly.
To me this “these knuckles are better than those” concept os pointless…what is the best weapon? What hand form has better “orthopedic” factors? A ridge hand (internal or external?)? spear hand? phoenix eye? vertical fist? horizontal fist?
To me, there is no better weapon than another per se, these weapons are just suited for different targets and ways of striking them…you don’t use a fist to hit something that deserves a spear hand, you don’t do a ridge hand to a spot you need a phoenix eye on…for me, this knuckle argument is just about that: you just use these knuckles on selected targets in selected ways.
It just pisses me off to read absolute judgements that imply that these hand forms are definite no-no’s all the time. I’m sorry, but for me it is not true: they can’t be used all the time alright, but they have their usefulness too, and it shoudln’t be discarded.
You can’t obviously take a tank out with a sniper riffle, but you can’t take a group of men out with an anti-tank bullet…each weapon will need to be aimed at a certain target if you want it to work, and unfortunately (or maybe fortunately), we haven’t found the gong fu equivalent of the nuke yet…