I guess this question applies to a lot of styles, not just Wing Chun.
I’ve just learned that the Wing Chun punches strike with the lower knuckles, as opposed to the more familiar boxing or Karate punches which hit with the first and second knuckles as they are bigger and harder. But the alignment of the bones in the wrist is stronger for the lower knuckles, minimizing impact damage (to you) and lessening the chance of the punch being turned at the wrist on impact.
But the little knuckles, man??? Ouch! I’ve only ever hit bags (or people ) with my big knuckles, and admittedly my wrists are a little bit damaged but I’ve never broken a bone doing it. But smacking someone in the point of thejaw (accidentally) with the little knuckles has got to run the risk of breaking the small bones in the hand. Question time:
What do you think? Do the little knuckles get stronger (I assume so) the more you practise or do you get hurt no matter how long you go? Has this happened to anyone?
And which do you prefer?
“Forfeit the game
Before somebody else takes you out of the frame
And puts your name to shame
Cover up your face
You can’t run the race
The pace is too fast,
You just won’t last!”
The thought of striking with the lower knuckles just meakes me think “crack”. I didn’t realise they did that. Spose it makes sense withthe wrist thing, but ouch.
yeah, you get used to it.
when i did karate many moons ago we used to punch using the “big 2”, but now i’ve used the lower 3 for so long hitting with the others would feel weird
___________________________________________________________________________ “I’m just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!”
The way I look at a skeletal hand the first two knuckles line up much better with the major bones in the arm than the last two. There are more big supportive bones in the first two.
JWT
If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV
Its hard enough to hit a moving target as it is, best to make the fist solid and condition it, whatever hits, hits. The second joint knuckles are often used in a raking motion accross the face or a closed fist palm to the ear.
I’d think structurally(sp?) the lower three are weaker. When putting a wrist lock on someone who’s hand is in a fist, we always try to push against the lower three knuckles.
In a real fight I use open hand anyway.
[i]Signed,
Rogue, Soke and Senior Grandmaster of Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Combat Chi jitsu Kempo Karate Do and Choral Society.
The only tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, “To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time." [/i]
I think in wing chun, the punch is meant to hit with all four knuckles, but with an emphasis on the bottom three. This is actually is a very natural position for the wrist, I find it more natural for a punch shoulder-level or above, then bending the wrist to hit with the first two knuckles. That being said, my Sifu teaches us to hit with the first two knuckles, the big ones. I always assumed you needed to strengthen the bones with iron fist training first, in order to use the small knuckles safely. -FJ
I find that locking the fist so that you hit with the bottom 3 is safer for the wrist. You can toughen them by LIGHTLY punching steel, not hard enough to bring blood, or even signifigant pain, just repeatedly. Occasionally focus on just the smallest one. Think of it as mobile makiwara training.
the lower two knuckles, the ring and pinky knuckles are as thin as a piece of typing paper.
IF you hit somone with just those two knuckles, ala a poorly thrown roundhouse punch for example, you will get acquainted with the classic “Boxer’s Fracture”. This may come in a variety of flavors, the most common of which is when the two broken knuckles ride up on the metacarpals of the afflicted hand.
as a rule DO NOT ever train and strike with the lower knuckles as a primary striking tool. You will regret it, and it will be for life.
Santa Claus is correct!!!. Just condition your whole hand man. Striking with two knucles of your fist alone is like sabotage, c’mon nobody here practice phoenix punch , or what about two finger strikes, or even a mantis claw …spear hand… leapord fist…if you can condition your hands to do a finger strike you can condition your lower three knuckles to punch
I can’t remember where I read it, but they did a medical study on the anatomy of a punch and the typical vertical punch hitting with the large two knuckles was the strongest anatomically by lining up all the bones and reducing the stress.
“God gave you a brain, and it annoys Him greatly when you choose not to use it.”
rich mooney you are so far wrong it is laughable.
i use the bottom three knuckles & have hit many things, including people & have never had a problem.
test- walk up to a solid(flat) concrete wall, now with your typical karate/kung fu type 2 knuckle strike hit it hard.
now with your fist vertical punch straight into it with the bottom 3.
if you are fair dinkum about it you won’t use your top 2 knuckles again.
also i would like to here from anyone as to how the top 2 knuckles when in a horizontal fist structurally line up better with the bones in your forearm than the bottom 3 do when your fist is vertical, just have a look.
vts
I used to have all my knuckles covered with blood when I started heavy bag training,now I punch trees with ease,and also with the fourth and some with the fifth knuckle.
Just looking at my own hand, I can see that indeed the two lower knuckles are better aligned with my cubitus and radius…and iff as someone said you can condition your hands for spear hands or phoenix eyes, why not these knuckles then?
I personaly do not have any problems punching with these, and I might add that this hitting surface feels much more natural for some strikes used in white crane, mainly what we call the pao quan (cannon fists), that follow a circular (vertical circle) trajectory to hit the plexus or under the chin…works well foorr the ribs too…in these strikes, the fist is slightly jerked up at the impact to add momentum and penetration to the knuckles, and it feels just right…
I do not know much about how Xingyi uses it, but I know it does use it.
I went to a William CC Chen Taiji workshop, and he stressed that in Taiji you had to strike with the top two knuckles, because to strike with the lower knuckles and not break your hand would require too much tensing of the muscles of the wrist and forearm—contrary to the principles of Taiji. I think any Taiji people can experiment for themselves: stand 3 feet from a wall, relax your upper body in line with Taiji principles (sunken shoulders, elbows dropped,bare minimum of muscular tension in arms, wrist and whole upper body). Now let yourself fall against the wall, and hold out your right fist to support the weight of your body. When I do that, and maintain as little muscular tension as possible, it’s my top two knuckles that support the weight—I believe that CC Chen is exactly right in that to make use of my lower knuckles in this situation would require much more use of the muscles in the wrist and forearm. One point though–I’m not saying that using the lower knuckles is an inferior or ineffective technique----just that it’s not in line with Taiji principles, at least as I understand them.
