A thought on punching....

I’ve been here a pretty long time, made some good and bad contributions to the board and tried mostly to laugh at myself if I get a little too rambunctious.

Anyhoo, I got to thinking the other day about punching and why boxers sometimes break their hands.

A lot of people here have expressed an opinion that the wrapping of the hands and the use of gloves is what causes the breaks. There is also the issue of target choice–I’m big on that one myself–you hit somebody in the skull with your bare fist, and you just might break it. Certainly a better chance than if you hit them in the gut.

However, the wrapping and the gloves thing is was usually catches my attention, and the reason why is simple, and, in all honesty, slightly whiney

There is another reason why boxers might break their hands, and it has nothing to do with conditioning or equipment, yet nobody here ever seems to have considered it. It might just be that good boxers hit much harder, on average, and there is only so much punishment the small bones in your hands can take. A guy like Tyson or Lewis generates a tremendous amount of force when punching, so it’s no surprise that hand breaks might happen.

I’m not necessarily of the opinion that this is true, because I truly don’t know, but its interesting that I don’t ever see this possibility expressed.

Why they break their hands

The evolution of sports martial arts

Boxing History
Let’s go back a hundred years. Way back then, bare-knuckled boxing was the norm. This is when you see a guy, standing there wearing a handlebar moustache that you could hang coffee cups off of, with his hands extended in front of him, elbows down.

Now while both the stance and mustache look silly by today’s standard, let me point out that this was called “London rules fighting.” That’s a joke because the stuff was so “no rules” that it made the UFC look like a Teletubbies show. There was no “gentleman’s agreement,” grappling, gouging, fishhooking, headbutting, purring (grinding a shod foot down the other guy’s shin, trying to break his foot to boot) were the norm. In fact, that “goofy stance” excelled at keeping people from closing, grappling and doing all those nasty-nasties to your precious body.

Sound ugly? That’s just the beginning. Here’s where it gets butt ugly. There were no round limits or decisions. Victory was determined by either knockout or the other guy being so punch drunk he couldn’t continue. No points, no decision… incapacitation. In other words, you won by beating the other dude senseless. And sometimes the suckers didn’t fold as quickly and easily as you might hope. This is why John Sullivan’s longest bout went for 72 rounds. The longest fight on record went 114. That, by the way, means all day! It was called because of sunset and declared a draw. See why I say London rules makes UFC look warm and fuzzy? People often did die.

The reason for changes in how boxers hit is very simple. Gloves. When gloves were introduced, boxing went down a totally different evolutionary line. The original purpose of gloves was to protect the participants. (This is really ironic because, while they limited gouging, hooking and other barehanded nasties, in the correct range, the extra weight of the gloves allow you to actually hit harder – provided you hit in a very specific way.) Along with this equipment many new rules and bans were also introduced to further increase the safety of the fighters.

But the real sweetheart was the ban on clinching and grappling. It was no longer necessary to keep the guy away because the ref would do it for you. This is one of the two major reasons the boxing guard came “in” to its modern position. There was no more need for arms to stick way out yonder to keep the other dude back.

The other big reason, guards came in was that position worked better with the new way of hitting.

A very specific way of hitting evolved from wearing gloves. When you are swinging your arms around with that extra weight perched on your mitts, you discover something real quick. It is the same thing you learn when you pick up a real sword, instead of one of those tinfoil wu shu thingies or a light dowel. And that is, even though you have a shorter time to fight, those dammed gloves get heavy.

With the extra weight of gloves on the end of your arms, it was easier to hit from a circular motion of your hips. You literally sling your weighted fist out from your body. Your hips and torso lead the motion with a twist. Once your arm is moving from body motion, you then rocket out your fist. This is where the idea of “the correct way to punch is from the hips” came from.

If you want to keep from exhausting yourself, you use your entire body, not just your arms. This applies to both gloves and weapons. Putting it into super simple terms: Move your ass!!! You hit with your entire bodyweight not just arm strength. That is correct boxing punching.

The thing is, that is a circular action.

That means it needs to be a close-range, circular hit. While there is a way to generate straight force from a circular motion, it requires some very specific body positioning, which a boxer will do. However, you have to know about it, because if you try to ape that kind of punching without understanding the body positioning, you end up actually losing power.

Along with the gloves came all sorts of other things to civilize the game, like limited rounds and point decisions. That meant you could win a bout by hitting the guy more times in a limited amount of time, not necessarily beating him unconscious like the old days. This often made speed more important than power. This is doubly true with extremely light gloves, in fact, the lighter the gloves the faster the punches.

Broken Hands

If you look at the way those old-timers hit, it was designed to protect their hands. And yes, while hands did break, they were not as common as you might think. Whereas injury to your opponent was real common. So here are these guys beating the hell out of each other for 30 to 40 rounds with minimal damage to their unprotected hands. That should tell you something about how they punched.

Conversely, think about this for a second. How many times have you heard of a modern boxer hitting someone outside the ring and breaking his hand? How about a martial artist?

If you look at it superficially, it is easy to dismiss these injuries as “he just hit wrong.” But something doesn’t gel with that answer. So if instead of accepting that answer at face value, you keep on looking into the problem, a far more accurate answer presents itself. How the guy was trained to hit has changed! People are hitting differently!

Face it, how people hit has to have changed. I seriously doubt that a professional boxer forgot years of training on how to hit because he was both a little drunk and ****ed off when he popped the dude. In the same vein, I also seriously doubt that a black belt – even from a belt factory – just spaces out how to hit. Injuries must arise from a different source.not that he did it wrong. (Don’t get me started about instructors who blame their ****ty techniques not working on the student doing it wrong…grrrrr!).

This brings us back to changes in training.

The cost of modern sports equipment was that you have to hit in a very specific way and be wearing special equipment. Try to hit someone like that without these two conditions and viola! a broken hand. And soooooo many people have found this out over the years when they threw a boxing or karate punch at someone’s head without gloves.

People have blindly accepted the changes in boxing as the way it has always been when it comes to hitting, or they contend that the new way of hitting is “superior.” This ignorance of changes especially applies to people from outside boxing, a.k.a. martial artists. Many of whom study styles that have long since adopted these changes – usually in the pursuit of safety in tournaments. Thing is while everybody is so busy going on about lineage and tradition, they sort of forget to mention these little insignificant issues.

That’s if you consider robbing you of your punching power insignificant.

That is very true, MP. Also, consider that the classic “boxer’s fracture” occurs at the pinky/ring finger knuckle set…the smallest bones receiving full power. The sheer number of punches thrown wears down the fibers of the bone. Plus, if you’ve got a fight coming up, you often have to go in with injured or broken hands. It’s your duty to the money men. George Foreman fought with broken hands quite a bit. lastly, boxers bodies are hard as iron, making impact damage more likely on the attacker.

maybe it’s the fact that is you never practice hitting things without wraps and gloves on you aren’t prepared for it.

There are plenty of MA schools that don’t practice hand conditioning so they are probably in the same boat as well.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone train a flat-punch? Probably more likely to break a wrist than a hand, but who knows…

If they’re hands are breaking because they hit with to much force, shouldn’t they hit with less force? From a MA view winning at the cost of destorying your body defeats the purpose.

IMHO

Boxers break their hands and martial artists from many styles break bricks!..;)Maybe the tremendous amount of force of boxers is not properly focussed or their fist is not squeezed tight enough? there could be many reasons!..I think boxers could learn a lot from traditionnal martial arts (Without fear of loosing their identity)and benefit from many century’s of knowledge and practice. The simple basic Karate punch was a weapon design to kill before the style became a “sport” and scoring points with flicking backfist became the norm!..But, I’m disgressing!
I think anybody can hit hard enough to break his hand and good technique,control and focus can prevent most accidents.
I heard that there is a museum in Okinawa full of demolished war helmets,shields and armors!..These things were done by simple peasants using their bare hands on Japanese soldiers!..You can even see the nuckles ingraved in these objects.There are ways to strike very hard even on hard surfaces but these things are not in the “occidental” martial arts curriculum yet.

Fred Sanford,

And maybe you aren’t being taught to hit hard. Both situations are equally possible.

Shinbushi, I’ve seen that one before. I agree that the guard position is clearly a result of gloves. I would also add that footwork and slipping and parrying as defense are largely the result of gloves. There’s nothing wrong with those as defense, of course, but you’re quite limited in your grabbing with gloves on. I don’t know if gloves changed the WAY we punch or the TARGETS. I’ve seen both arguments, and I don’t necessarily think that it’s one or the either–more likely, it is a mixture of both.

Shaolindynasty–I agree. But it’s easier to pick a new target (or a new weapon, like a palm or elbow) rather than take something off the punch.

Old Jong–A museum with knuckle imprints? Interesting. There’s no reason those couldn’t have been caused by a historical equivalent of brass knuckles though. I bet something like that existed. Still cool :slight_smile:

And maybe you aren’t being taught to hit hard. Both situations are equally possible.

but then again maybe we are taught to hit hard and do it without being dependant on wraps and gloves.

And maybe not. Maybe the fact that boxers use handwraps and gloves lets them learn to hit things with the full potential of the human body, whereas you are instinctively pulling your punches without realizing it.

See my point? You don’t know, I don’t know. I have expressed, quite clearly that I have no idea what is true and what isn’t in this instance. There’s no particular argument here. My only real comment was that I’ve never seen the possibility discussed. Until we know for certain, it’s a possibility, and a perfectly valid conjecture.

Fred- Don’t pay attention to MP. His school doesn’t even spar! :slight_smile:

Maybe the reason that bare-knucklers didn’t get broken hands as often was because they got used to it. They probably figured out from experience exactly where you can and cannot safely punch someone when your hands are unprotected.

Brassknuckles?

Well,I doupt it because these things would have been documented for sure. I believe these early karateka were in fact building their own natural “boneknuckles” ;)by relentless practice on the makiwara board. This practice by creating stress in the bones forces them to grow larger and stronger,allowing them to endure severe impacts without risks.This is a slow and patient process in witch technique, joints alignment,breathing and everything else must be done correctly.
There are still “old school” dojo doing that kind of practice. I have a good friend who teaches in a very traditionnal shotokan place.
I for myself prefer to train iron palm in a less strenous way!.. :wink:

You can hit harder with a wrapped hand…period. People always use the “Breaking” argument i.e. I can break a brick with my fist. That’s great I have a new challenge; tie 150 bricks to the ceiling, get them all swinging then run around and break all of them as they are moving and not hurt your hand. Most boxers could hit a stationary target vary hard and not hurt their hand (much), but in a fight the target is not stationary. Don’t most NHB fights now have the 5 oz glove? I would think those guys would be the ones to train to hit bare knuckled but even those sports are adjusting.

You may train to be able to punch with a bare hand but if I hand to choose taking an bare knuckle shot from a bare knuckle fighter or a gloved shot from Mike Tyson I’m taking the bare knuckle one every time. You could probably condition your hand over a very long time to be able to throw a full bare knuckle shot and not break it on an off center impact but your hand would be deformed from the tempering and arthritis would almost certainly be in your future.

In a street fight you will punch as hard as you can and worry about the consequences later, but in a set fight you will be wary of hurting your hand. Take away that fear and you can hit much harder and more often.

I’ve been in San Shou for over ten years and have wrapped my hands ever since I learned how to hit hard. I will get tendonitis in my wrist for a few days after throwing even a few punches without wrapping. Maybe I have bad hands but I’ve hurt many good fighters with those bad hands.

Lol braden. Funny, but who are you responding to? :stuck_out_tongue:

Oh nevermind, you edited :smiley:

SanShou Guru

so…you contend can hit harder with wrapped hands, but I say can you do as much damage? For instance..can i guy break a brick, when hes wearing a glove? I certainly couldn’t…

Its all in the conditioning really. Through finger strengthening excercises, iron palm, and iron hand, the fist becomes more durable and hardy. Coddling your fist in a glove is what keeps it soft.

Oh, I suppose creedence must be lent to wrist and fist position, and also knowing where to and where not to strike. But conditioning is the most important element, imo.

Gabriel

I just deleted because I didn’t want to get dragged into it. But since you replied to me…

I said: One of my girlfriends who is 100lbs and untrained broke her hand hitting someone.

And I was responding to the main question asked in the thread.

I appended: I once put out my back sneezing.

Which has 50% my odd sense of humor and 50% elaborating on my underlying argument very vaguely.

Master Pan…hits hard

Hey MP,

Have you ever heard of or seen Master Pan Qin Yu (I think). I’ll check on the name. Anyway, he trained with like 15 different Sifu in China and at one point took on some of the Triads. He carries a metal plate around with him in one hand and punches it throughout the day with the other. He’s got crazy calloused knuckles because of this and can apparently hit HARD. I think, if memory serves me, he will only hit a person with about 30% of his full power. How he measures 30%, I don’t know. Intersesting though. Anybody else punch with the vertical fist?

Braden,

I’ve thrown my back out sneezing too. While brushing my teeth. My little brother was in the bathroom and laughed as I fell over with spit coming out of my mouth. :slight_smile:

And, um, “Easy Lenny :D” Just for the record you have at least got me wondering if there really is something different about an internal shot.

This whole thing wasn’t designed to be a boxing punches harder thread. It was designed to perhaps provoke some discussion. It’s a very real possibility that boxers hit harder…but that doesn’t mean they do. :slight_smile:

Shadowboxer—Yeah, I’ve heard of that guy. Some people on here have made references to him before.

Here’s a short bio about pan qin fu - you can see his knuckles in one of the pics

http://www.masterpan.com/text/Biography.htm

I suspect boxers probably do hit abnormally hard. I just don’t think that is the primary reason behind breaking the hands.

I’m really not sure what to say on the topic, which is why I deleted my post - but Gab caught it too quick. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

Really, I don’t think there’s such a thing as “hard,” by which I mean, I don’t think the practical/functional power of a strike is a one-dimensional variable. There’s alot of stuff going on… and I think one of the things that’s going on is transmitting power in a way which doesn’t damage your own body. So the whole issue I think is pretty complex.

FWIW, I think the environment in which your training methods evolved dictates how you approach these issues. I know the gloves thing sounds a little whiney… but if your training tools evolved to hit as hard as possible with gloves on, that’s what they’re going to do. And I think we’d have to agree this is going to be a bit different than hitting hard without the gloves on.

What this means, I have no idea.

P.S. Pin Qin Fu is crazy.

Yup, I’d say we do agree. Most likely different… but to what extent, and in what way. I’m hardly qualified to answer it, and I’m not even sure I care :smiley:

It would be interesting, though, to just get a meter like the one in Rocky IV and check it out though :slight_smile: