Stop B!tch'n...

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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[QUOTE=SimonM;876066]This isn’t, for me, an issue of whether or not there is more than one groundfighting style, I am perfectly aware that there are several since I’ve participated in three different ones (folk wrestling, judo, jjj) in my life. The issue is one of nomenclature; does something become part of a core art just because one instructor cross-trains in it and then instructs his students in both core and supplement? Or does it remain a case of an instructor who simply has more than one core art or who has a core art and a supplemental art?

I think the latter. Takeshi thinks the former.[/QUOTE]

My point was, bjj has plenty of things that came from Gracie’s previous training, yet no one questions whether it is core to bjj, because it is.

It’s not about core arts and cross-training, but whether new elements are integrated into the system of fighting, in which case their role is specific to that system of fighting, and thus, now part of the style itself.

For bjj, it is easier to make these distinctions, because it doesn’t, in any useful sense, approach anything but getting to ground fighting and fighting from and out of there, but even so, there are elements that, according to your definition, are not brazilian jiu jitsu, but are, by and large, considered by everyone to be part of bjj.

Kung fu styles are intended to encompass broad aspects of fighting, and so it is perfectly rational to adopt new techniques and work them into the system where possible, at which point they become core to the style, where they work, just as happened in bjj.

This, of course, requires pressure testing, which is the thing some schools fail to do.

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ALL Kung-Fu systems came about through combining elements from other methods. That is how they evolved to become what they are (were).
Once you stop doing this, you stop evolving. TCMA became great through this process, and then people striving to be sooo traditional, closed their doors, closed their minds, and their art stagnated, and remained where it was a hundred years ago, rather than continuing to grow and evolve. The Masters who developed these styles, did so by being open-minded, and taking what works.
You can follow suit, or kill your Kung-Fu.

63

btw- this does not mean throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Too many people never reached a high level, and only learning the basics of their art, decided that they already knew better, and disgarded the whole thing as being useless.

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[QUOTE=TenTigers;876080]ALL Kung-Fu systems came about through combining elements from other methods. That is how they evolved to become what they are (were).
Once you stop doing this, you stop evolving. TCMA became great through this process, and then people striving to be sooo traditional, closed their doors, closed their minds, and their art stagnated, and remained where it was a hundred years ago, rather than continuing to grow and evolve. The Masters who developed these styles, did so by being open-minded, and taking what works.
You can follow suit, or kill your Kung-Fu.[/QUOTE]

I have to agree on that one! The Chin Woo organization and Central Guoshu Institute are prime examples. This has been quite an interesting thread to say the least. A lot of really cool opinions. With that said I have a few of my own.
First and foremost, on the subject of making kung fu work… Well! I would first say understanding. First the understanding one’s particular goals for studying Kung Fu in the first place. Is it to be a fighter or an artist? If for the latter (and that’s perfectly alright) then don’t expect to be a great fighter. But if it is for the former then comes the journey to understand the application behind EVERY leg technique (whether kick or stance), and hand technique (whether a fist, claw, or grab) within one’s style. This also brings me to the subject of basics. There are fundamentals within every well established style of kung fu that should be practiced with reckless abandon. For instance stances and footwork are HUGE in a lot of TCMA’s. However for the sake of learning more advanced techniques a lot of us (because of some lack of discipline or another) get bored and want to move on to something else, which is why when practicing forms that back foot comes off the ground in that bow/mountain climbing stance. On that same note how many times have we seen kung fu guys get taken down by that notorious MMA tackle when all they had to do was refer to that basic technique? I’m no expert by any stretch of the imagination but basics like that have worked for me! But the most important thing I think needs to be remembered before we of the family of traditional TCMA’s take offense to know-it-alls who say kung fu is ineffective is that it’s not the art but the practitioner who holds that responsibility. Most TCMA’s are 100’s or even 1000’s of years old. And if they were that ineffective they would no longer exist. I’ve lost fights (street fights) and won them. MY kung fu has been both effective as well as ineffective. But that was MY lack of understanding, or fluidity or whatever other myriad shortcomings! Not that of Longfist or Tai Chi. Oh! One last thing (and I’ll shut up for a minute): I’ve watched some sparring matches and some fights recently and have noticed how a Kung Fu player will square off with a wrestler and try to contend in that wrestler’s realm… Uh ja… BAD MEDICINE!!! I think when it comes to those moments the best thing is to stay true to what you’ve learned… I.e. should we have the chance, those of us who practice arts like Longfist should take the most ridiculously trademark (albeit mobile) stance of that style! Of course if you lose I guess there’s the risk of looking stupid. But let’s at least give ourselves some familiar ground to work with!

Namaste

65

i think what makes kung fu unique is its trainging methods. what appealed to me about kung fu was always about the extreme conditioning, enduring pain and eat bitter. its the quest to become invulnerable.
at first i didnt even know about forms. it seems these days peopl ehave unhealthy obsession about forms. forms are just random techniques your lineage masters stringed up theyre not sacred.
iron fist iiron body skill, lifting stone weights are basic skills almost every kung fu guy used to learn. how many traditional people learn them now?

how many people practice basics?
after 5 years i still do horse stance punching in the morning 200 times, who still do?

in qing dynasty u pass military officer examination by lifting stone slabs. 250 pounds is minimum, and you hit eight sandbags all around you. a lot of average kung fu ppl think weights arent traditional. or hitting bags.
people dont wanna eat bitter they wanna have fun and gain self confidence.
people dont wanna train hard. yang luchan from yang taiji killed some of his students, and taijiquan was one of the softer styles.

about learning from outside influences, the most popular weapon the sabre dao is a mongolian weapon. shuai jiao one of the few styles still able to be effective has huge mongolian and manchu influence too. learning from 8 muns and 9 pais was a compliment.

one thing i find funny is ever since ufc became popular i saw kung fu poeple doing muay thai kicks when they never learnd muay thai. or going into peekaboo boxing stance when they never stepped foot inside a boxing gym.

maybe kung fu is just too foreign. it must have been cool and exotic for westerners to watch some ching chong chinamen going HUWA! HAIEEE! WAA! on a movie screen and wanted to imitate as children or teenagers, but maybe in the back of people’s minds they just can’t pull it off. too strange. too weird. i think this is true and people need to admit this.

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[QUOTE=bawang;904869]i think what makes kung fu unique is its trainging methods. what appealed to me about kung fu was always about the extreme conditioning[/quote]

Definitely a major factor.

forms are just random techniques your lineage masters stringed up theyre not sacred.

No, forms are not sacred, but in no way are the traditional sets “random techniques”.
(if they give that appearance, they were passed on incorrectly)

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[QUOTE=RD’S Alias - 1A;875550]The Bagua may be attempting to develop the body method first. [/QUOTE]
The SC also attempt to develop the body method first but the SC body method is developed through the wrestling and not through the form training. The end goal may be the same but the paths are different. A guy has been with me for 5 years. He has learned most of the throwing skill but he has not even learned a single solo form from me yet. I told him that the day that he no longer be able to compete (he plays with a local Judo club), the day that I’ll teach him the solo form. IMO, the solo form is to enhance the combat skill. It should be taught after one has the combat skill and not before that. When you get old and no longer compete in tournaments, you will have all the time on earth to enhance your foundation. When you are still young, you should test your skill against as many people as possible.

I may not belong to the main stream but that’s just how I feel about CMA training. I had gone through the TCMA training method myself (learned one form after another). It didn’t work for me and I hated it. I just don’t want others to take the same path as I did by spending most of the valuable training time trying to make the form look pretty.

The day when someone asks you, “What’s your style?” and your answer to him is, “My style is the style that can beat the **** out of you.” You may have just helped CMA to move toward the right direction.

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;904910]The SC also attempt to develop the body method first but the SC body method is developed through the wrestling and not through the form training.[/quote]

It actually never occurred to me that SC even HAD ANY forms.
If I gave it a bit of thought, I might have decided that it would be something like Judo “kata”.

IMO, the solo form is to enhance the combat skill.

Agreed… in the sense of “polishing” it.

It should be taught after one has the combat skill and not before that. When you get old and no longer compete in tournaments, you will have all the time on earth to enhance your foundation.

When you talk about it as enhancing or building your foundation, it seems as though that would be something you’d start out with.
You can’t seriously mean that you want to go into competition without a well-developed (or at least “useful”) foundation.

As for having “something to do” after retiring from competition?
Sure, you can use it for that…

The main question that I have when I consider the way you put it is… just what were you doing in the first place? Shuai Chiao or Competition?

It seems as though:
If you were devoted to Shuai Chiao, then after retiring from your “competitive phase” you would continue to do Shuai Chiao in one way or another.

and

If you were actually a Competitor, then after retiring… what is left?

I may not belong to the main stream but that’s just how I feel about CMA training.

I’m not so sure that there is any such thing as a stream (main or otherwise) in MA.

I had gone through the TCMA training method myself (learned one form after another). It didn’t work for me and I hated it.

“Different strokes for different folks…”

I just don’t want others to take the same path as I did by spendinmost of the valuable training time trying to make the form look pretty.

“Making the form look pretty” is not the objective in a MA, although it is the end goal in a “performance art”.
That said, off-hand, I can’t think of any moves in my forms that look “bad” or malformed in an aesthetic sense.
The objective is to make the moves as nearly identical in all ways to the way they are actually used.

The day when someone asks you, “What’s your style?” and your answer to him is, “My style is the style that can beat the **** out of you.” You may have just helped CMA to move toward the right direction.

That’s not the way I normally express myself.

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[QUOTE=bakxierboxer;904912]When you talk about it as enhancing or building your foundation, it seems as though that would be something you’d start out with.
You can’t seriously mean that you want to go into competition without a well-developed (or at least “useful”) foundation.[/QUOTE]
Since there is no limit in foundation training, there is no way to decide whether or not your foundation is good enough or not. You don’t want to stay in the elementary school until you can graduate with all “A” scores on every classes. If you feel that music may not be your field, you may be satisfied with a “C” in music and move on. There is only a small window in our life that’s good for “experience development”. After we have passed that period, we may have family, full time job, and we no longer be able to take any risk to get injury.

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[QUOTE=MightyB;875497]Ok- it’s time to stop b!tch’n and to offer suggestions. If you believe kung fu doesn’t work- offer up the why, and how to make it work. But… here’s the trick- what, why, and how without losing what makes kung fu… well… kung fu.

I’ll start-

Here are my suggestions:

more sparring… realistic sparring, and scenarios… THE Catch… try to at least do something from your martial arts training that doesn’t involve losing faith in the art and result in you mimicking kickboxing. Maybe not so much sparring right away- but pad up and drill a technique all out- the guy attacks hard- you defend hard- with a real kung fu move. Learn to make it work- then spar.

Develop realistic focus mit drills- and well- drill.

Stop having soooo much compliance once a technique is learned- i.e. progressive resistence training. At first he lets you do it, as you get the mechanics down, he resists.

Your guys’s turn. What can we do to put the martial back into traditional?[/QUOTE]
Exxelant suggestions. Thank you so much for bringing up a chinese martial arts topic on a chinese martial arts forum.

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[QUOTE=AJM;905123]Exxelant suggestions. Thank you so much for bringing up a chinese martial arts topic on a chinese martial arts forum.[/QUOTE]
It’s like to go to a Christian church and tell a pastor that he needs to have faith in God because that pastor constantly b!tch’n about “God doesn’t exist”.

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My guess is, nothing will ever replace real fighting against a resisting opponent who has it in for you. Is that a safe way? of course not!

so lets bring back the realism to kung fu or as real as it can get without getting seriously injured all the time (which for some schools is partly/wholly/varying degrees already there??).

My view is:

  1. take out the guess work;

  2. teach the applications;

  3. drill them;

  4. spar using them;

  5. bring in/go out to spar/fight with fighters from other backgrounds;

  6. train/spar in the context you need/ whether its sport/self defence/ etc.

  7. plus alot of conditioning, cardio, drills drills, etcetc

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;905026]Since there is no limit in foundation training, there is no way to decide whether or not your foundation is good enough or not. You don’t want to stay in the elementary school until you can graduate with all “A” scores on every classes. If you feel that music may not be your field, you may be satisfied with a “C” in music and move on. There is only a small window in our life that’s good for “experience development”. After we have passed that period, we may have family, full time job, and we no longer be able to take any risk to get injury.[/QUOTE]

While your thoughts about “growing out of it” are good, it doesn’t seem that going directly from “elementary school” to the “big leagues” is a very good idea, either.
Similarly, “semi-pro” leagues aren’t exactly a place for “beginners”.

Of course, if you think about my phrasing of “growing out of it”…

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[QUOTE=bakxierboxer;905201]While your thoughts about “growing out of it” are good, it doesn’t seem that going directly from “elementary school” to the “big leagues” is a very good idea, either.[/QUOTE]
IMO, the sparring/wrestling training should be part of the elementary school training and it should start from day one. Of course you can’t swim very well the 1st time that you jump into water but you can still try to keep your body float.

SC doesn’t have long form but short drills (13 Taibo, 24 Shi) - 13 standing postures and 24 solo drills.

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;905213]IMO, the sparring/wrestling training should be part of the elementary school training and it should start from day one.[/quote]

You’d get some really loud/persistent howls of outrage from “liberals/progressives” if you were to try forcing “combative stuff” on public elementary school kids.
Or did you mean “basic training” in a MA school?

SC doesn’t have long form but short drills (13 Taibo, 24 Shi) - 13 standing postures and 24 solo drills.

Sounds at least a bit similar to the Judo “Kata”.

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;905213]IMO, the sparring/wrestling training should be part of the elementary school training and it should start from day one. Of course you can’t swim very well the 1st time that you jump into water but you can still try to keep your body float.

SC doesn’t have long form but short drills (13 Taibo, 24 Shi) - 13 standing postures and 24 solo drills.[/QUOTE]

i agree with u
about short drills, thats not just shuai jiao, for most styles with forms each move from a form should be a drill by itself

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[QUOTE=bakxierboxer;905216]You’d get some really loud/persistent howls of outrage from “liberals/progressives” if you were to try forcing “combative stuff” on public elementary school kids.
[/QUOTE]

Hawaii does it

http://www.sportshigh.com/sports/judo/tournament/2008

http://hawaiijudo.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogsection&id=8&Itemid=28

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[QUOTE=TenTigers;876080]ALL Kung-Fu systems came about through combining elements from other methods. That is how they evolved to become what they are (were).
Once you stop doing this, you stop evolving. TCMA became great through this process, and then people striving to be sooo traditional, closed their doors, closed their minds, and their art stagnated, and remained where it was a hundred years ago, rather than continuing to grow and evolve. The Masters who developed these styles, did so by being open-minded, and taking what works.
You can follow suit, or kill your Kung-Fu.[/QUOTE]
I know a young fella from China that practices his familys’ system. His Father required him and his brother to go learn another style. Apparently this tradition has been passed down for a lot of generations. Very good idea in my opinion.

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[QUOTE=bakxierboxer;905216] if you were to try forcing “combative stuff” on public elementary school kids. Or did you mean “basic training” in a MA school?[/QUOTE]
I mean “beginner training stage”. In most of the SC school, the teacher will ask the new students to wrestle with the old students on the 1st day. This is a very good test.

  • If any student doesn’t like physical contact then he may need to find other style.
  • It tells the new students that how much body balance knowledge that he has.
  • After few months, the new students will feel that it gets harder and harder for the old students to throw him, he will then build up confidence on his training program.
  • The most important one is, this will prove to a new student that no matter how strong he is, without a good throwing move, he cannot throw anybody (there is always a lucky punch but there will never be a lucky throw).
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[QUOTE=MightyB;905295]Hawaii does it

http://www.sportshigh.com/sports/judo/tournament/2008

http://hawaiijudo.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogsection&id=8&Itemid=28[/QUOTE]

Nope, the links specifically refer to “teams”.
These are not required school-system-wide MA courses.