Statement from Sydney Hung Sing Gwoon Regarding 'Jeung Yun Mun."

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
1

A Statement from Webmasters of the Sydney Hung Sing Gwoon Website.

We, the undersigned, have been using the term ‘Jerng Mun Yun’ to describe our Sifu Chen Yong-Fa. This, it seems, has upset some people in the CLF fraternity.

We would like to clarify, as students of Chen Family CLF, the term ‘Jerng Mun Yun’ is used strictly referring to the Keeper of the Chen Family tradition and NOT all of the CLF branches or schools.

Our Sifu has never claimed himself any titles. We used the term as a mark of respect for his dedication in maintaining and in promoting his family art. We did not see the need to qualify the term as this is a Chen Family CLF website and our tradition came directly from King Mui.

We hope our statement will clear up any misunderstandings caused unintentionally. No disrespect is intended on our part.

Yours Sincerely

Arthur Abrahamian, Alan Baxter, Lane Louie, Daniel Potts.

2

Fu-Pow

This morning, I saw this post and I send this reply:

"But in your Oficial Web you say:

""Our teacher, Sifu Chen, Yong Fa, is the 5th generation direct descendant of Chan, Heung - the founder of Choy Lee Fut kung fu - and is considered to be the present day Jerng mun yun (Keeper of the style).

Choy Lee Fut is one of the few original kung fu styles left today that has its own Jerng mun yun. The Jerng mun yun is the actual heir to the family tradition, and as such is entrusted with communicating the style and for keeping it alive through subsequent heirs. The Jerng mun yun is given the whole style with nothing held back from his father, the last Jerng mun yun.“”

You don´t explain that he is the “keeper” of the Chan Yong Fa´s students.

Very much Sifus (Chan Yiu Chi´s students) don´t consider him keeper."

This evening this reply is deleted of CLFMA forum and I can´t write anything in that forum.

Why???

Besos
:smiley:

3

Sorry. Double post.

4

The way I see it is that not all of Chan Yiu Chi’s students were family. The Chen family tradition was only passed down in full to the family and that is what Chen Yong Fa is JMY of. The other branches are subsequently factions (kongs?) and subsequently have their own keepers.

Chen Yong Fa’s students refer to him as keeper of the Chen family tradition as he is the direct descendant and has all the family archives. He is not, and has never claimed to be, JMY of Hung Sing or Buk Sing.

We would like to clarify, as students of Chen Family CLF, the term ‘Jerng Mun Yun’ is used strictly referring to the Keeper of the Chen Family tradition and NOT all of the CLF branches or schools.

That would be the original CLF tradition from Chan Heung and not the factions that have formed and changed since then. Those other factions have since become autonomous and virtually styles in their own right, although they have common ancestry, so there’s no need to clarify the statement any more than there is a need to clarify that he’s not the JMY of any other style.

As far as that website is concerned Choy Lee Fut is Chen Family Choy Lee Fut. The others are either Buk Sing Choy Lee Fut or Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut. It was those branches, after all, that chose to splinter and form themselves into branches independant of the original line. That’s why those branches don’t have all the system that the Chen Family tradition has (i.e. the qigong internal sets, the dummy forms, the lion dance forms, etc.)

I would venture a hypothesis here (that I think has been mentioned before). Frank McCarthy started all this controversy over again with his posts about Ching Cho and so on. I would suggest that maybe his branch are concerned that the Chen Family is beginning to make in roads into the US. (Didn’t Master Chen Yong Fa give a seminar in San Diego last year?)

I think that Frank is trying to smoke out the Chen Family in order to get his hands on manuscripts with the Chen Family school that he otherwise has no right to access. Well, there’s one way to know that information and it isn’t through studying Hung Sing CLF. Choose your camp and stay in it, I say.

Seems to me that the Chen Family are quite happy with their position, their knowledge and their kung fu. They are resoundingly absent from all this childish arguing after all.

No offence intended. Just hypothesising.

5

As far as that website is concerned Choy Lee Fut is Chen Family Choy Lee Fut. The others are either Buk Sing Choy Lee Fut or Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut. It was those branches, after all, that chose to splinter and form themselves into branches independant of the original line. That’s why those branches don’t have all the system that the Chen Family tradition has (i.e. the qigong internal sets, the dummy forms, the lion dance forms, etc.)

Good points, but you must also keep in mind that much of the Chan Family CLF probably developed after Chen Heung and that the Hung Sing people have sets that the Chan Family does not. If you look at the situation as though it is evolution it is like one species over time branched out and evolved in two or three slightly different ways. The “original” species is really no longer around although its slightly modified descendants are.

This is how I see CLF.

I think Hung Sing people are resentful of the implication that their art is some how “incomplete.” We know this is not the case and that their are very good Hung Sing and Bak Sing players out there. As to the things like the lion dance or qigong, these are good to learn but they don’t necessarily make you a better martial artist. These are supplementary activities. (And as far as lion dance goes my Sifu will give any Chan Family lion dancer a run for his money and then some!!! And yes thats a challenge!!!).

Or lets look at the Bak Sing people. They seem to have less in the way of forms but they have some really great combinations and two man sparring drills. My Sifu has shown me a few of them. Does Chan Family have these? Probably not as they are a unique development of Bak Sing CLF.

The point is that there are many similiarities and yet every branch has something unique to offer. I personally think that the Hung Sing people could benefit from the internal/meditative aspects that the Chan Family has. But I think that the information can flow both ways…for everyone’s benefit.

Let’s drop the name calling and sarcasm and try to use this unique opportunity to bring unity to CLF. If the CLF practitioners of the old days had had this amazing technology of the internet than maybe we wouldn’t be having these discussions that we are now. They could have shared information and history more accurately and stayed in communication.

So it is up to us to use this technology for good. Or to use it to spread gossip, innuendos and stab each other in the back.

Is that what we want the history of our style to reflect?

6

Originally posted by Fu-Pow

I think Hung Sing people are resentful of the implication that their art is some how “incomplete.” We know this is not the case and that their are very good Hung Sing and Bak Sing players out there. As to the things like the lion dance or qigong, these are good to learn but they don’t necessarily make you a better martial artist. These are supplementary activities. (And as far as lion dance goes my Sifu will give any Chan Family lion dancer a run for his money and then some!!! And yes thats a challenge!!!).

That’s a fundamental misunderstanding of martial arts! The kung fu without the qigong? It’s yin/yang. One without the other is incomplete! Don’t you also study tai chi, Fu-Pow? Isn’t that because you need internals to balance your externals?

As for lion dance, I’m sure your sifu has very good lion gung. I was just pointing out that other branches don’t have the Chen Family lion sets.

And yes, I’m pretty sure that Chen Family have two and four man fist and weapon sets.

7

Well Done

Fu Pow,

I would like to give recognition to you on a post well-done.

Peace

Je Lei Sifu

8

Everything was very setted clear, if you want more I think you don’t understand anything.
I doubt that many of the people that round here would recognize something that is very clear, just to keep the peace.

9

I’m with Fu pow on this.

Serpent.

I think it’s good idea to avoid any comments on which branch is better or more original than another. Why? Just like we’re offended by the remake of CLF history all the other **** we’ve been through recently, the practitioners from other branches get offended too.

It’s easier to just accept the fact that each branch is unique and equal with other branches.

Here’s a question for everyone: What would you benefit from proving that your branch is better than the other branches?

“Umm. nothing?..” Exactly. Good thinking.

The same could be asked about changing the CLF history btw.

So it’s stupid to rip the community apart by making innuendos, being sarcastic and deliberately asking insulting and inflammamble questions about things the others feel passionate about.

So everybody just quit being a stupid *******, be diplomatic and try to unite the community instead of ripping it apart with overflowing stupidity.

That isn’t really specially targeted at anyone in these forums. Just something I needed to say, because I’m so tired of constantly having to defend myself and my branch from people I should concidered as my kung fu cousins (Thanks for the word, Frank =))

premier

10

The way I see it CLF is CLF no matter which branch you belong to. We all use the same hand techniques chap, sao, deng, pow kup, gwa, bien, jong and the same stances and footwork. After all tigers hunt and fight the same it doesn’t matter whether they are from Siberia or Sumatra a tiger is a tiger.

11

Alec, very well said. No matter where it is from, a tiger is still a tiger.

This debate is just going around in circles and I don’t want to end up insulting the Buk Sing or the Hung Sing schools directly.

For years everyone was happy with their histories and the words of the Sifus. Frank McCarthy, for whatever reason, stirred everything up a while ago when he started posting here and several people got drawn into it.

I’m not going to post any more on this subject, I’m tired of it and the petty arguing. Believe what you want to believe. Maybe one day all the elders that have the right will release a joint, agreed upon, statement or something. Who knows? Perhaps this debate will rage on for years to come.

As long as you’re happy with your kung fu, then that’s all that counts.

I wish peace and prosperity on all my kung fu brothers and sisters, of all and every school.

Peace.

Out.

12

Dragon32

They did the same thing to me. They seem to be afraid of even discussing the issue in their forum.

13

Hiram, Dragon32…

This is just a guess, but it probably is one of two things.

  1. They don’t feel that’s the most approriate place to discuss that.
  2. You are not the most approriate persons to discuss that with.

They stay out of the dicussions, at least publically. And since it’s their forum, they can decide what kind of discussions they want to flood their servers. And personally, I think it’s the right way to handle it. If you have a beef with them, take it to them privately.

14

are you sure you guys don’t all do wing chun.
just as these disputes go in wing chun i have found they will never get anyone anywhere.
oh well back to argueing how my lineage is more pure than the rest of those other poor deluded wing chun folks.
vts

15

Lice

"This is just a guess, but it probably is one of two things.

  1. They don’t feel that’s the most approriate place to discuss that.
  2. You are not the most approriate persons to discuss that with.

They stay out of the dicussions, at least publically. And since it’s their forum, they can decide what kind of discussions they want to flood their servers. And personally, I think it’s the right way to handle it. If you have a beef with them, take it to them privately."

I don´t want to dissagré with them, I want to say them onlything,
They say that Chan Yong Fa is “their” Keeper, but in their publicity (Web-site, magazine, etc..) they say that CYF is “the” keeper. Why they don´t explain well this subject?

This was my question.

Besos

:smiley:

16

oh for ****s sakes, the website or any other publication does not state that chen yong fa is ‘THE keeper of chen family, hung sing and bak sing clf’, all it states is that he is the keeper of clf. and as it clearly states on the website that he is from the chan family, what’s the problem? anyone can put together that he’s the keeper of that branch. why would anybody need to bring in other branches when it’s not necessary? why should he state ‘i chen yong fa is the keeper for chen family clf, and chen family only. i am not the keeper for hung sing or bak sing clf’ :rolleyes: lemme tell you, i have never seen a hung or bak sing practitioner say ‘i train in clf.’ it is ‘i train in hung sing or bak sing clf’ so obviously they themselves see it as different branches from ‘clf’ i.e chen family. i don’t buy into this crap that the 3 branches fall under the one name. obviously with all this bickering it doesn’t!

anyone who bickers over the word ‘the’ has some serious issues. why the fight over grandmastership? does it make your kung fu skills any better? perhaps you should all get off your asses from the computer and start training, instead of arguing over some bullsh!t titles that won’t improve your skills anyway. do you think after all this cr@p that anyone would respect a so-called clf jerng mun?

17

Dragon32:

Amigo necesitas urgente un cruso de lógica o de lenguaje, porque en realidad tu pregunta se denomina " repeticíon de datos que provoca inconsistencia".
Sin ofender te lo digo, solamente estas dandote vuelta sobre lo mismo. Si lo borraron fue por eso.