Whats a treetop?
I love this!
Tree top is when you have caught a leg and you lift it as high as you can as quickly as you can. Your opponent will “topple like a tree”
aaahhhh, not at all what I was thinking of!
Havent had the chance to go through this thread yet, but while scanning it i decided i would like to ask about Covering-Blocks, in boxing etc. First i want to ask, How should a beginner defend a muy thai roundhouse kick to the neck or face…especially one where your just about to realize you are going to be hit, so you dont have much time to jump out of the way…Hence, covering up blocks/defences!?. 
Originally posted by diego
Havent had the chance to go through this thread yet, but while scanning it i decided i would like to ask about Covering-Blocks, in boxing etc. First i want to ask, How should a beginner defend a muy thai roundhouse kick to the neck or face…especially one where your just about to realize you are going to be hit, so you dont have much time to jump out of the way…Hence, covering up blocks/defences!?.
Also, what is the correct term for cover-ups?.
“cover up” is an appropriate term for that block.
and in that situation a double arm block would be the best block.
Just watched Michal McDonald use this to fend off Mo Smith’s roundhouse in the 2001 K-1 north america.
you just turned your forearms into flesh thai pads..
its better than taking one on the melon. but you can’t take many of these and expect to punch.
Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
[B]
you just turned your forearms into flesh thai pads..
[/B]
And obviously you use your forearms so your palms face you and not your opponnent right?..like in a knifefight your best to expose the outside and not the inside of your arms wich houses the major “die-quik-if-cut” arteries.
In my style we have double palm blocks where one hand hits the wrist and the other hits around the elbow or bicep “a destruction can be done as you can backfist or palm the bicep, etc,” but i havent had the chance to test-altering this motion of stepping to the side and double-palming, into a flesh muythai pad…but can easily visualize this!:).
What stance is best to back up these makeshift pads?..i just go into a cat for the double palm, so all my wieghts on the backleg and i can jump in quikly for a followup with my emptywieghted-leg!.
In mma comps, what stance “and please by stance know i am talking about transitional movements;)” would the best coaches reccommend for this defense?.
thanx
Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
[B]DNC: picture this sir, you & I are standing in L front boxer’s stance. You take a right step and move forward & outside as I Left jab.You now want to parry outside and with your right arm push my jab even further to the left (you moved right, chances are that was probably sufficient enough to avoid) take alook at your now open ribs which are very close to me. Wow Look at that opening! Even though my near arm is blocked across me, I’m going to turn into you and give you a shot with a powerful right hook. My pivioting on right leg and turning into you brings my right hook in perfectly. Ouch. You can’t even use the right effectively because I was able to pivot away
Now you move to the right and use your right to parry across your body as you slide out. Your ribs are no longer open, your closest hand is in good position and tucked. Even if I pivot to line back up, you’re still in great position again.
your way can work. my way will work. fighting is about the odds. I play safe so that my opponents counter’s are reduced. [/B]
Well, ST, we could get into a ‘yeah but’ thing here real easy. We’d have to work it face to face to really see, but there are a few things I think you are missing in my application.
First off, I don’t fight from a boxers stance. A Neutral Bow is my base stance, though I’m allways moving so that changes constantly.
I’m not trying to push or direct your arm so as to extend it across your body. I want to borrow the momentum of the retrieval of your jab and drive it back to your body more or less on its original path. It would momentarily tie up (check) that weapon, and should disrupt your base by rocking you back on your heels a little.
That block is simultaneous with the step to your left side and I’m in close and set for my strike, so it will be quick. But even if you do manage to move I’d feel it and be moving myself. Fights are dynamic, so this isn’t a preset plan, just an example.
If I did parry your left with my right, my strike of choice would probably be an inward elbow strike to your ribs (I really love elbow strikes) and would deliver simultaneously with the parry and step. That would effectively cover my ribs. I used this a couple of days ago in light workout with an ex JKD type and it worked well. (That’s one of the reasons I thought of this as an example here).
Also, remember that I pointed out that checking your base is automatic when I get in close. Knee checks to your near leg are effective not only to prevent your using it as a weapon but to disrupt your base and inhibit movement. At advanced levels a leg check can even be used as a weapon to buckle your knee.
I liked your method also, but it would not have illustrated my point.
Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
and in that situation a double arm block would be the best block. Just watched Michal McDonald use this to fend off Mo Smith’s roundhouse in the 2001 K-1 north america.
you just turned your forearms into flesh thai pads…
its better than taking one on the melon. but you can’t take many of these and expect to punch.
If you are in a right foot forward stance try steping back to about 4:30 with your left foot as you throw up the double block. A kick has its maximum power at about 80% of its arc, just before its apex. Steping back will take the kick at a point past max power and save you some punishment. Also, the kick was thrown against the weakest direction of your stance. Steping back to 4:30 into a good solid stance gives you a stronger base to work from.
Shaolin Tiger00, I have heard that San Shou fighters use only 5 or 6 throws. Could you describe them?
Thanks!
Diego -
And obviously you use your forearms so your palms face you and not your opponnent right?
[b] I turn my so that the two palms are facing each other. (if we bent the elbow 90 degrees so that they are parallel to the floor thy would be vertical fists.) I like your knife analogy and honestly just like my method because its closer to my original guard position, since this is a last ditch defense, chances are I won’t have time to “think” about what I’m doing. I’m just putting my hands up! Some even cross hands, but I’d discourage that.
Stance- same thing. natural orthodox stance. great for balance, great for mobility and great for returning an attack after you absorb this blow. [/b]
DNC101 -
good point about movement away from the apex. Movement is by far the best defense! either move past the apex or before (san shou abides by this as it makes the catch/throw easier)
CheeseDog
[b] Depends on what san shou fighter you asked..
If I’d list the 5 most common throws or takedowns (I’ll assume by “throw” you meant both.) they would probably be..
- roundhouse kick catch and reap/dump
- front kick catch and reap/dump (after a kick is caught there is usually more than one option)
- cross body drag (tai otoshi) or with the head (koshi guruma)
- double leg takedown
- outer leg reap (osoto gari)
To this list I could add about 20+ more throws but these are the most common that I’ve seen. Throwing really depends on personal style. While one sanshou guys may be well versed or seek to throw (Albert Pope) another guy may want to use speed (SunTzu) or his great kicks (Marvin Perry) to control the fight. ie - throwing may not be the highpoint of their “game” but all sanshou guys know these basic throws and a few more.[/b]
Thanks, Shaolin Tiger00!
If I could ask, which throws/takedowns do you think are best for people that are average height and stocky? I would love to be able to study san shou but there doesn’t seem to be anyone teaching it anywhere near me. (I live in northern Kentucky, near Cincinatti, Ohio.)
Greatly appreciate all of the info
CD
check out this thread: click here
body type - sounds like me
If you are interested in throwing and don’t have a sanshou school, get to a judo dojo. If you want to learn throws you should also learn groundwork too (what happens after the throw off the ring) keep practicing striking and practice no-gi judo. you’ll quickly see what works and what doesn’t.
So, what about the scissor kick? Anyone ever use this (other than Cung Le)?
ST00 i have another question on the coverup but have to sign out quik.
Next question, just as you can cut kick an opps supportleg while he kicks “wich i would like to know the various ones good to use in a ring,” How many slip and cut punches are there…just looking at blackjacks post about the barehand boxing manual and they show a few, were he punches to your head say with a vertfist and you duck and slip a gutshot to him with a hook…How many is thier for one to use in the ring…Especially curious about this as in HOPGAR Style KF blocking punches with punches is a major tactic of this longarmed style wich i am beginner in, so understanding “sport usages” will give me a better understanding of my basic punches applications!.
So, what about the scissor kick? Anyone ever use this (other than Cung Le)?
Yep. both the normal scissors and the reverse (the one that Cung does).
SunTzu’s coach Julio used to do a nice scissors takedown. I don’t know if he still does. Its not a takedown you’re going to use alot, but its a nice one to have in the arsenal.
Since judo has given us such nice names and categories for throws, its judo name is Kami Basami.
Diego-
As to how many slips there are. 3- either a right or left slip or backwards (sometimes just stepping back, othertimes twisting away). against jabs and crosses and an uppercut.
Duck to avoid hooks. combine these motions and you see how they get the term “bob n’ weave”
the term “cut punches” isn’t one that I’ve ever heard. (why do kicks have the term but not punching. i don’t know.) Punching in that manner is usually called a counter.
Noticing the book and you see much more defensive punch catches and blocks (like kungfu) than you do in modern boxing. Those have been eliminated because superior offense always championed over that strategy. boxer’s call it “the lost art of defense” and the defense thru superior offense school of thought has proven to be the better method for success.
This is why many combat sports feel that they have another advantage over traditional arts striking skills. They are keeping their defensive tactics very spartan and spending more time building better offensive skills.
yeah… he still does it… it rubbed off on me for a hot second… now its rubbed all the way off…whats the snake does whatever that was talked about in the other thread… the on that’s not like the firemans carry…
“snake creeps down” is a kungfu posture usued in Wushu and N Shaolin and taiji and prob a million other styles.
After looking at that application I’m going to retract my statment. Although that stance isn’t as low as most I’ve seen, it does transition very well to the fireman’s carry.
funny enuff… I have been working on that lately…its hard enuff breaking the balance when u can pull the arm… but with gloves:(…
Suntzu - I’ve commented on it on the other thread. from that stance it’s impractical and … be nice.. well you get it.
for a sanshou guy - it like the double leg and many other “shoots” - you’re not going to pull it off on a guy unless he’s stunned or off balance. He’ going to sprawl out when he feels you shoot. that said. It can work after you’ve set him up. Guys with grappling, wrestling, sambo backgrounds understand how to get an opponent set up for leg tackles.
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