thanks for the link…
Cheese Dog - I got WAAAYYY more than 5 or 6 throws… I got like…… 7 or 8 of 'em:D…
I also second the Judo recommendation… I sometimes train at a local Judo club… as a refresher… once u figure out the transition from Gi grabbing to gloves… its all good… but those guys are beasts… and I feel like a true beginner… plus a learned a lil’ bit of ground work… even tho Julio tapped me out Saturday… rear naked choke:mad:
Don’t think about grabbing the wrist. That doesn’t actually work on most folks. Hit it off a tight overhook and pull HARD up as you step deep into him and then get your head under then pull tight down into your body with the crook of your elbow as you step deep into him. At worst, you miss and can transition to a single leg pick up or a rear body lock to a “lift and drop.”
maybe on our next get together y’all can fix my fireman’s carry… I’m just infatuated by ‘hi altitude’ throws…
You can’t hit your knees for this, right?
Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
…you see much more defensive punch catches and blocks (like kungfu) than you do in modern boxing. Those have been eliminated because superior offense always championed over that strategy. boxer’s call it “the lost art of defense” and the defense thru superior offense school of thought has proven to be the better method for success.
This is why many combat sports feel that they have another advantage over traditional arts striking skills. They are keeping their defensive tactics very spartan and spending more time building better offensive skills.
I think most martial arts schools start out teaching defensive moves such as blocks and counters so the beggining student has a good grounding in basics from which to develope advanced skills later. I know that several styles, mine (American Kenpo) included, develope those basics into combined offense and defense. “Every block is a strike, every strike is a block.” Examples:
In my previous example on this thread, whether I blocked or parried I did more than stop his strike or redirect it. I moved him to a position of disadvantage as well as disrupted his ballance.
Let’s take the example a little further. A block travels across your body to intercept and stop his attack. Instead of just throwing an inward or outward block try deploying it on a greater angle so that it goes toward him more. Extend it a little so that it becomes a vertical backfist or a hammerfist aimed at his eye. You’ll have to turn your body and move in, otherwise you’ll get hit since you aren’t deflecting the strike as much. This also will give your block/strike more range, and it gets you in close. Your strike won’t have as much power, and it may not even land. But I guarantee it will get a reaction that you can use to set your next strike (this one a power strike) which should allready be en route.
Another example would be strikes like knuckle rakes and claws that cross up inside so they are clearing as they strike.
Traps, pulls, cranes, and pressing checks are other examples. They are defensive in that they recieve his incomeing or withdrawing energy. They are offensive in that they use that energy against him and set him up for your attack which is now in progress. These, by the way, are moves that some sport fighters don’t develope because their heavy padded gloves wouldn’t allow them.
I’ll agree with the sport fighters that “Hit him firstest with the mostest” is a good strategy. But sometimes he throws first and I figure we’d better know what to do about it.
MP - "Three Points are Awarded if:
The opponent is forced to fall by the competitor’s techniques, including the competitors deliberately falling while dodging defensively."
I guess it depends on the judge…
Eh, I guess we can do the version where you don’t go to your knees. It’s harder.
Traps, pulls, cranes, and pressing checks are other examples.
of wasted movement.
Keep striking simple and you cannot go wrong.
SunTzu - I’ve got a setup for you.
thanks ST…
I’ve bee tryin it without touching… basically it becomes a bearhug to a dump… nothing pretty… it works… ive also experimented with a over/underhook of the lead leg to a, I guess, high-crotch… its OK… but mostly that ends up as either a support leg sweep, a tree topper as u put it or a sideways dump… the Sun Da guys over in China must be superhuman or something…
basically it becomes a bearhug to a dump
That’s called a body-lock. and its a different throw 
superhuman? nah. throws always look more complicated than they really are.
Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
[B]Traps, pulls, cranes, and pressing checks are other examples.
of wasted movement. [/B]
ST, you should have paid more attention to your forms, then you’d know better!
Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
[B][I][b]
Diego-
.
boxer’s call it “the lost art of defense” and the defense thru superior offense school of thought has proven to be the better method for success.
[/B]
how does this work in the ring…you attack first and keep attacking?.
i dont think this is always the case for certian individuals like say ali for instance where if i remember correct… i think a few of his opponents lunged in, to hit ali. mohammed would slip to the side, slightly, then burst in with a freaking jab 
and knock the opponnent out…using taichis principals of using an agressors force agianst him…like a train smashing into one of wil-e coyotes painted mountians…or crushing a pop can by slamming and squishing it into the ground…or striking a face with poor alignment nor strong knuckles and you break your fist because your punch was stronger then you have been conditioned to take…sorry for the extended anologies…can you give me more info on the principals/rules/laws of :defense thru superior offense school of thought
Know of any weblinks with articles talking about the history of these boxers thoughts on the issue?.
peace
Crane?
Hey cool post ST
Great discussion guys, this is the kind of info that we can really use!
Originally posted by Suntzu
Crane?
For instructional purposes, hold your hand up in front of your face. Now turn your palm away from you, relax your wrist and let your hand fall forward. That is a basic crane position. It can be used to hook and pull or check, depending what you sense in your opponent and what you want to do. The pull is a frictional pull, not a grab. Another use is to drive a strike on through and hook: as in a heel palm strike to the side of the mandible that glances past and hooks the back of his neck. You could then pull him toward you or move him sideways. It can also be used to carry an opponents kick ****her out than a parry might, delaying his replant also. Once you learn it, it is pretty natural and very effective. But you have to fight loose to use it.
Edit: I forgot about the **** filter. That’s "f@rther"out.
how does this work in the ring…you attack first and keep attacking?.
Diego - sometimes yes, sometimes no. You mentioned Ali, and Ali was the epitome of a “pitty-pat” boxer. stick and move. Ali would use his long, quick jab to attack and then he’d rock backwards and pedal his feet to keep an opponent always swinging but never hitting. Ali would use this jab as a disrupter too. He sensed movement and would fire it. In fact the only time that comes ot mind when Ali used much blocking was the “rope a dope” tactic where he absorbed Foreman’s punches.
Ali used a “soft” defense with lots of movement and passivity to fatigue opponents and control the ring.
Other’s users use a more aggressive approach, come in fast and strong and keep combinations flowing to keep an opponent defending and confused. Looking for an opening to exploit. When they find themsleves defending, its usually movement that gets them out of trouble and they start over again.
This style is more suited towards “a street fight” because chances are the opponent is not skilled and your combinations will rock him! secondly. you need to end it quickly. You do not have the luxury of a ring to keep at range and chances are he will grapple with you in close out of desperation. knees, elbows, throws, and groundfighting are important to learn.
MW is correct. Great Discussion.
Since we’ve talked alot about boxing. I was thinking about differnt boxerx, their styles and how different styles have been sucessful.
Is there a particular fighter or style that you like? and do you know why?
ex. De La Hoya: - expertly used a stiff, hard left jab and like many other Mexican boxers, has a great left hook to the body.
Sugar Ray Robinson: - master of it all. a perfect blend of speed, skill, power, brains.
Tyson - A puncher. amazing raw power that could make one shot KO’s. great uppercut and great head movement (slip)
If you like a fighter but don’t know what he did/does let’s talk about that too.
not a boxer… but Mike Bernardo and Ernesto Hoost… my 2 favs… Mike has this KILLER hook combo… I’ve been tryin to steal it for months… it just starting to come out now… i just need to get the power behind it… and Ernesto… dude is a mathmatician in the ring… I like how he can throw leg kicks a will… makes it look soooo easy… people se mine comming a mile away… but Roy Jones is da man… he just frustrates opponents… he tags u… u swing back and u juuuust miss… p!sses me off just watchin…
I always thot DLH a b!tch until I seen him beat up on Vargas… but if I had a Mayweather training me… I’d have killer hands like that too… that’s prolly one of the best fighter/trainer match-ups ever put together… Mike has/had(?) the best head movement in the game… he could move and bang at the same time… thats easier said than done… well atleast for me…
Ironic thing: I hate watching kickboxing except sanshou. I love boxing, love judo, love sanshou, but hate kickboxing. I do however admire Hoost, Mo Smith, Bernardo, Alex Gong, Leko, Noi & others who are amazing standouts.
lol @ de la hoya being a sissy. I’ve always been a fan ( I love the infighter/ counterfighters.) but that fight proved that he had heart behind the skills and smile.
I like RJ jr. because I too like to use the upper jab from the “lazy” position. (many people don’t realize that he doesn’t lift it and fire it straight like a normal jab. it just rises to meet the chin at a 45 degree angle from his waist level.) but he hasn’t fought a hard fight in so many years that I’m looking forward to John Ruiz pounding on him to find out what kind of heart he has. Roy has great defensive movement. lots of head & shoulder motion
K1 would be perfect if it allowed throws… K1 is not your daddy’s kickboxing… its almost cruel… but I think that they have ‘san shou’ rules for the undercards… didn’t cung fight in K1??? Yeah the rising jab is sweet… I have adopted the ‘lazy’ stance… I’m tryin to break away from it… but it has made me… well… lazy… i need to let it go for a while…
Roy’s lack of power is killin him at the higher weights… the speed is saving him now… but can he take the pounding???
BRING BACK DRAKA!!!