pvwingchun - dont take it the wrong way. My sensitivity isn’t half of that as of yet! The problem is many wingchun schools and instructors just dont really understand the concepts behind sensitivity. That’s why some of these guys train to be so fast! the other thing you have to understand from my implication is that many people just need to apply themselves harder to attaining that instead of trying to push through the system and get all the techniques and forms.
“. But then good sensitivity allows this when sparring, street reality is a different story”
I disagree with this, if you are training one thing at your class but expect something different are you approaching wingchun like a sport? If you have excellent sensitivity it will help you in and out of the ring/class/street. Otherwise you would be implying that wing chun is designed only to fight other wingchun?
R5a,
You are downplaying speed so much I think I have to disagree.
If you read about Leung Shun, do you think he would have been impressed by slow chain punches from an old man? An old man who was controlled but was fast enough to deliver controlled chain punches to a much younger skilled martial artist?
I agree 100% with TjD - there are a lot of factors. Sure speed as you get older decreases but you are able to compensate with other skills. It does not mean you should ignore the speed component - it needs to be worked on along with sensitivity, timing and root.
I am not suggesting speed alone is the most important factor - it isn’t - chi sao is important as is footwork and good forms.
What I disagree with is your comment
“These schools ignore the sensitivity training and such to advance at a faster rate. The problem is, even though you know how the chess pieces move, can you really play chess?”
Chi sao is a tool - if you cannot hit someone and make it count then you are a pawn in the WC game. WC is a tool for the King to use. The ability to use basics quickly is one of the strengths of Wing Chun - chi sao builds on the basics to make it more versatile to give you more finesse, to teach more efficiency but chi sao is not a means in itself.
Secondly, WC is a system to combat other techniques - in a real situation there are no rules - a street fighter will not apply sublety in technique - he will respect being hit hard - we employ our skillsets to overwhelm an opponent. The ability to overwhelm an opponent includes being able to hurt the assailant hard.
Effective striking is a must and that includes speed!
Isn’t it kinda weird to put a thumbs up on your own posts?
I’ve been away awhile, but starting to catch up. Looks like you got some big time infomercial thing going on. Free advertsigins! Not too transparent bro.
R5A,
"The problem is many wingchun schools and instructors just dont really understand the concepts behind sensitivity. That’s why some of these guys train to be so fast! "
NO, NO.
Generally it’s because there’s an emphasis on form in technique.
There’s so much to learn that some instructors prefer to concentrate on root, speed, correct body structure and footwork before moving to Chi Sao. Their argument is that with good basics the transition to chi sao will be easier. It has nothing to do with a lack of undertstanding - it’s just a difference in training method.
dbulmer - speed is a factor but to me it is more of a by product of sensitivity. If you strike at me and I connect the bridge, when you go to move I can feel you tense just a tad, feel your energy ad bam I am in before you. I believe it is a partial fallacy to say that speed equals power however.
"What I disagree with is your comment " what is it you disagree with?
As for Chi sau, it is a tool of wingchun agreed. Definitely not an ends to a means but because it has been ‘sold’ as the gem of wingchun, many schools, and students teach or are taught this before they are ready.
“in a real situation there are no rules - a street fighter will not apply sublety in technique - he will respect being hit hard - we employ our skillsets to overwhelm an opponent. The ability to overwhelm an opponent includes being able to hurt the assailant hard.
Effective striking is a must and that includes speed!”
I agree, no rules, its what I have been saying all along. you can imagine any scenario you want but you wont know until you get there. Meanwhile we train sensitivity as well as the other ingredients to overcome whatever it is we might face.
I am not saying you should ignore the speed factor either, just saying that wingchun speed, comes from sensitivity.
“Generally it’s because there’s an emphasis on form in technique.
There’s so much to learn that some instructors prefer to concentrate on root, speed, correct body structure and footwork before moving to Chi Sao. Their argument is that with good basics the transition to chi sao will be easier. It has nothing to do with a lack of undertstanding - it’s just a difference in training method”
I absolutely disagree here. Would you build the frame of a house before the basement or the foundation? Too many people want thier wingchun house to look good and they want people to see it so they build the house before the foundation, some even forget the foundation. When the crap hits the fan their house collapses, why? Because they didnt work the basics hard enough and felt just like you said, that they didnt need good basics to move on.
How could a 5ft 2 woman defend herself against a 6ft 1 bloke?
I would hope that after a year of WC any person, regardless of skill, would be able to get themselves out of a situation like this. Training 3x2 hour sessions per week, it adds up. 1 year of training is quite enough time to become proficient to a high enough level to be able to defend yourself against a single unskilled opponent, depending on how hard you train for those two hours you could be better or worse off, but not by that much. If you want to run, then hope they can’t run faster than you and don’t have something nasty to throw at your retreating body.
when you go to move I can feel you tense just a tad, feel your energy ad bam I am in before you. I believe it is a partial fallacy to say that speed equals power however.
This was mentioned on the original thread, but I’ll bring it up again - you don’t tense when you strike. Power may not equal speed, but it is certainly a distinct part of the equation.
The problem is many wingchun schools and instructors just dont really understand the concepts behind sensitivity. That’s why some of these guys train to be so fast!
‘Many’ WC schools, eh? So.. in that case, you could list some? Or are you going purely off what people on here have said? I’m very interested to know if any of us are included in this blanket statement of yours..? I’m sure everyone will be understanding enough to realise that you’re only stating your opinion if you’d like to name some, just in case you’re thinking you might upset some people.
It is my belief that most wing chun people have less then 1% of the sensitivity they could have.
Yeah right, and 90% of real fights go to the ground.
Why was it necessary to have a second thread on this subject? Did you feel you were losing the argument on the first?
If I am not mistaken, your point is that in your opinion it is more important to train sensitivity and structure rather than speed, strength and technique. You’ve made that point about 100 times over using various different points to say the same thing.
I see what you’re saying (duh). You don’t need to say it so often!
My point being that on the street you may not be able to make contact and have that sensitivity. Then what? WC is not a sport to me personally.
Once again I do not care how good your sensitivity is if you are not fast enough to counter or beat the attack you are beat even if you feel me move first. It takes a combination of all techniques, precision speed and sensitivity to be effective. I am not fast by any sense of the word but I have other students tell me I could feel you move before I could see it but was unable to stop you and vice versa. This is because we were not fast enough in this instance to counter.
And I will pose the question again, What happens if our skill, technique and sensitivity are approximately equal? C’mon don’t dodge the question, say it, the faster will get there quicker:D
R5a,
You asserted some WC guys don’t undertsand the principles of sensitivity. My point was that they do. They prefer to build upon a solid foundation before progressing to Chi Sao. We don’t disagree on this point except I thought you were less than generous to differences in training methods.
Power=Speed+Body momentum. Speed for me is independent of sensitivity. Sensitivity gives me the roadmap, speed + structure gives me the vehicle. Timing gives me the impact and splat! is the result.
To be effective you need both- one in isolation is not enough generally.
Also, as my skill level improves I won’t attack unless I am confident I’ll hit - it’s wasted energy otherwise but when I do attack I might only have a small window to play with - when that time comes speed comes into play. I will want to land efficiently and I don’t want to give my opponent too many second chances.
Early I wrote: “The level of bridge contact should, IMHO, be minimal. Chi Sau is a vital drill, but I have to ask Red, when someone’s swinging in with hooks and jabs, and is intent on taking off your head, how much ‘sensitivity’ are you using to deal with the first punch?”
(Well, if Red5Angel can give himself a thumbs up, I can repost )
And as pvwingchun said: “Once again I do not care how good your sensitivity is. If you are not fast enough to counter or beat the attack, you are beat even if you feel me move first.”
What am I trying to say? Well, isn’t there a WC saying along the lines of: “You move first, but I get there first.”
Speed and the ability to deal with it without contact is of prime importance. A fellow wingchunner I know went to Hong Kong a few months back and trained with Ip Chun’s students. He said almost the entire lesson was chi sau. As a result their Chi Sau was first rate… but I wonder how well they deal with bridging the gap and negating the first strike?
All the sensitivity in the world won’t help you if we have no contact and I throw the fastest jab known to man (not saying I possess it :)).
Your precision will be great, your sensitivity first class, your root deep… and your eye black.
Originally posted by red5angel
[B]RR - of course there are the genetically gifted out there who just have an edge. with those always in the back of our mind we must assume that wingchun should be made accessible, and can be made accessible to anyone, like you said, there is no need for those gifts, just good hard work.
The idea is that with time, your sensitivity can overcome speed, even natural speed. Your root and body unity can overcome weakness and allow you to be powerful.
TjD - IMHO good technique comes FROM the sensitivity, relaxation, body unity and root.
I realized something this weekend. I am not a small guy, about 5’10" 205 lbs, I used to wieght lift a lot but now I do alot of situps pushups and pullups to maintain good health. now, this keeps me strong, but I have noticed that while doing the forms or what have you, my body has a natural tenseness to it, because of all the muscle building work I do. But it has its limits. With internal power you dont limit yourself to you muscle power. I stopped all of this and this weekend for the first time I have fealt like my body has finally started to really relax! [/B]
Let me get this straight…strength isn’t needed? I agree to this. You seem to have been saying this for sometime now…and you just stopped your personal strength training not two weeks ago? You seem to be contradicting yourself. So you condemn everyone else and you are just beginning to feel like you are really relaxing—after one week? You learn fast! I stand humbled before you. You have been training for two years? How long have you been doing chi sau training? You really feel like you have that much ability that you can say that nearly all are bad…and you only have two years experience. Is this your opinion or are you repeating some other’s words? How many schools have you been to? Two, five, ten, ok how about twenty? You are speaking to an internationally based forum here. Have you traveled that much?
Rill, no need to name names on this board. I say if you ask the question then ask it of yourself first, if you past the test then look around you.
Anerlich - I posted again for two reasons, first I had done some thinking and was hoping to clarify and two the other thread was prettty much hijacked. This thread seems to have gone pretty well actually, alot of discussion here.
pvwingchun - if you want to be realistic, then there is always out there who is better then you, and there are many variables. You could be having a bad day, your opponent could be tired, things are never equal.
Black and Blue - I know what you are saying about the jab. the idea is that a good wingchun man can get that contact, and all he will need is an instant of contact.
Mithrandir - would you like my resume? or would a quick rundown be sufficient for you? I have been too almost all 50 states of the US, several countries in the middle east and Central Africa as well as australia.
As for relaxing, I have found since giving up my strength training that my body has begun to relax more. Just this morning I caught myself continuously tense in the chest and kept having to remind myself to relax but it is coming along.
Ultimatley what I am saying is that with sensitivity you do not need speed. Black and Blue said it, you move first but I get there first. My point is in that saying, you just have to think about it and try it out a little.
If you think that you don’t need speed with your sensitivity so be it.
Ultimatley what I am saying is that with sensitivity you do not need speed. Black and Blue said it, you move first but I get there first.
Exactly but this will only happen if you are faster than your opponent because if you are not faster then you cannot arrive first. But I feel for you if you think that your sensitivity is all you need, no offense but IMHO I think you are being misled or don’t understand your principles fully. This principle is also about speed and not just about sensitivity. Speed and sensitivity work together they are paired, without one the other is useless. There is always more than one aspect to each principle. Sometimes there are multiple levels to each you just need to explore them.
pvwingchun - you and I may be looking at the same thing from two different points of view. I would say that speed comes from sensitivity, and so there is no reason to do speed trainin as you are doing it through sensitivity training, it stems naturally from this. Doing speed drills and such in my mind is just a waste of time because you could be doing sensitivity or something more important. The speed comes but it developes through your other training.
I agree, good debate, some others had some good things to say as well. hopefully I can get around your area sometime and we can touch hands and test our theories!
Mithrandir - would you like my resume? or would a quick rundown be sufficient for you? I have been too almost all 50 states of the US, several countries in the middle east and Central Africa as well as australia.
As for relaxing, I have found since giving up my strength training that my body has begun to relax more. Just this morning I caught myself continuously tense in the chest and kept having to remind myself to relax but it is coming along.
You didn’t answer my question. Have you attended Wing Chun schools in all of these places–or was this during your military time? My point about the strength training was that you just recently stopped it—after you had been putting everyone else down for strength training. You contradict yourself. How long have you been training Chi Sau? So how many schools have you been to?
Mithrandir, some of that was in the military, some was not. I have not been to any schools out side of the states but visited I would say close to 15 or 16 across the midwest and southwest.
My ‘strength’ training consisted of pushups and situps in the morning to warmup before my wingchun. Recently I have been studying more about the softness of internal arts and after some good instruction and good information I decided to try an experiment and stop doing those to see how I felt. In just a few short days I have started to feel more relaxed, my body is less tight, not totally relaxed, I imagine that must take some time yet.
not since I started over with Carl, had to start completely over with the basics! Before that I did about a year and a half of chi sao, or so they called it.
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