One thing I learned this weekend, and it was really struck home for me, was that wingchun as a soft art can very much be considered to be internal. Why do I say this?
Well, lets start by taking economy of motion. If you dont have any internal power, dont know how to unify your entire body behind your actions then you have to work with speed and strength, making large moves to build up power for your strike. This in turn leads to having to work on speed because you project so much that if you arent fast you never land a blow. Now imagine being able to move mere inches or centimeters to deliver the same power! You learn to utilize every joint in your body, and all the energy in each part to put that power into your target. how about absorbing it and being sensitive enough to take your opponents energy into you and utilising it to “load the catapult” as it was put to me. Like a laserbeam striking a mirror, you can reflect that energy back but also have the ability to put your energy behind it as well.
Like Michael pointed out Carl demonstrates this energy by touching you and sending this energy into you and its powerful! I couldn’t imagine being hit with this sort of power! Its much more substantial and powerful then external muscular-derived power. this is something you infortunately cannot explain well in writing but must feel for yourself.
This kind of thing is accessible to anyone, and one of the reasons I believe wing chun is considered a womans art, because you dont need strength, size or speed to accomplish these things, you just need to train, and be precise, and it will come!
red5
How does it feel to always be singing to the choir!!!
Alot of the discussion I see and the level of wingchun I have seen in the past tells me its not the choir I am singing to Sunkuen. I think you would be pleasantly surprised to see and feel what I am talkinga bout.
I think you’d be surprised to find out that what you describe is what everybody else is doing already!!! Your newfound discovery is everybody elses old news. Welcome to the internal aspect of wing chun. I hope Carl taught you guy’s the chi kung excercises that go along with it.
p.s. You’ve got such a pretty voice red5!!!
We have learned a lot of warmups and excersises that are applicable to what we are doing, and we have seen and felt what it does through Carl.
Funny though how when a thread on wingchun:internal or external comes along, no one can seem to agree really, even here on this forum.:eek: that is why I felt I should mention it, the other stuff I have seen and experienced hasnt even come close and I would be willing to say that most of it out there is again paying word of mouth to the idea of internal while flexing those muscles and working those speed drills.
It seems to me that the use of speed and strength is a no-no in all lineages.
I would agree, but sometimes it doesn’t feel or look that way. I have seen a few post on here about speed drills as well as how should I do push ups or situps and things like that. It seems that information hasnt got out to all our WC brothers and sisters. I am finding that I used to do those for health but am finding that just doing the drills and wing chun I am doing keeps me in pretty good shape, and I run as well, to get the stamina up for when I start hitting tournemants.
Its incredible the internal power that can be drawn upon, sparringa little with Carl this weekend he would hit a spot not very quickly and never with big exaggerated movements and you would just get sent flying!
r5a
Funny though how when a thread on wingchun:internal or external comes along, no one can seem to agree really, even here on this forum
pehaps thats is in part due to the “flexible” meanings of “internal” and “external” I now of no clear standard other than the “three internal arts” of (i think) Tai Chi, Xing Yi, and bagua(?).0
If youve read the “sword polishers record” you know the crux of the arguement.
It seems to me that the use of speed and strength is a no-no in all lineages.
…
I have seen a few post on here about speed drills as well as how should I do push ups or situps and things like that. It seems that information hasnt got out to all our WC brothers and sisters.
On the contrary, whilst speed is something you should not rely on to do well, it is certainly an aspect of your training that you should be aware of. Speed is part of your skill level, and is naturally attained through relaxation - the more you relax, the faster your muscle groups can move and switch groups to make your strikes and movements faster. We all train speed in this way whether we mean to or not - however, it should be noted that speed without accuracy is pretty well useless.
Training speed by deliberately relaxing, or doing things like chain punching at high speeds will allow you to move fast all the time regardless of whether you’re fighting or trying to catch something you just knocked off the table. Having extra speed gives you room to move if you muck up and need to recover from something and it allows you to strike before your opponent can react - even with the opponent in contact and using chi sao.
Do you need speed to deliver a high power punch? To a point. A strike is just a fast push, the faster you move the more power you’ll deliver - the same way a bullet will pierce a sheet of metal (like a suit of armour) but an arrow won’t. Both will still do some serious damage, but if you want to kill someone, you’re going to be better off using a bullet because it hits faster and doesn’t give them as much time to react.
red5angel - just because you don’t train it or Carl hasn’t explained it to you, doesn’t mean it’s not useful. We don’t train double arm single chi sao, but it’s still a useful exercise.
RedAngel,
you might be surprised to discover that the ‘internal’ guys who actually go out and fight do loads of ‘pushups and situps’. Bodyweight callesthentics are a frequently used tool in a variety of forms of Xingyi and Ba Gau. Chen Taiji seems to like its squats (isn’t that what working those low stances is, in one sense).
Learning and then developing the body mechanics of a martial art is a life study, and different approaches will be taken at each phaze of one’s development.
The division of ‘internal and external’ is fairly artificial- one devised as a way of popularizing certains arts to the Beijing public in the early twentieth century. There are distinct ‘internal’ mechanics and teaching approaches, but these can blur.
Philipino martial arts are supposedly ‘external’, but when Tom Bisio showed up at Vince Black’s school, Vince was supposedly quite impressed with his ‘internal’ skill. Tim Cartmell contends that a number of grapplers demonstrate ‘internal’ mechanics. Ken Fish has some very nice articles stating that some of the best internal stuff he saw in China was from Northern Shaolin teachers.
All of these folks- Vince Black, Tim Cartmell, Ken Fish- are well known ‘internalists’ of superb reputation who train fighters. Vince Black and Tim Cartmell both use body weight calls and do some serious conditioning training. By all accounts Ken does also, but I’ve never heard first hand accounts of his curriculm.
Your contention that ‘internal’ power is not derived from muscle is frankly a reflection of your degree of magical thinking and unquestioning hero worship. Motion (besides collapsing to the floor) requires the use of muscles. It’s which ones, and to what degree that make the difference. Stop parrotting dogma and start thinking. I have no issue with Carl or with Ken’s method- I’ve heard naught but good about them- but I have no patience for sheep in any line, including my own. Think, experiment, study, and learn. None of this is magic, just work and skill.
Andrew
Andrew and Rill - Obviously I disagree and not because of “magical thinking” or “Hero worship” (But nice of you to slip that title in where it is inapropriate and uncalled for andrew.). Its from experience. Sure you can do speed drills and strength drills but then you are missing the point. With sensitivity you dont need speed. Old Taichi masters have been said to read the minds of thier opponents and move before they move, not because they were faster, many were much much older then thier opponents, but because they were able to feel the intent of the opponent.
How would you explain Yip Man? I wonder how many pushups and situps he had to do to be as good as he was? He wasnt exactly packed with muscle, and he beat Leung Sheung, who was much bigger then him. I just got done reading a book on a top internal artist who at the age of 70 couldnt be touched by any of his younger students. He advocated doing the forms slowly and with intent, and plenty of sensitivty drills, but discouraged his students from doing even the simplest of excersises not related to the art.
Sure you can muscle someone in chi sao if you want, but thats not what wing chun wants from you. Instead of doing all those pushups and situps and speed drills try sensitivity drills, working on your structure, see if something diffent doesnt come from it. I have been hit by external guys and internal guys and internal guys seem to have more substance.
Anyway, doing the pushups and situps and speed drils and the weight lifting is a way to go, but its not the wing chun path and that path fades with each passing year as your strength and speed succumb to age.
Originally posted by red5angel
but its not the wing chun path and that path fades with each passing year as your strength and speed succumb to age.
Careful, careful, little boy… With such little experience, who are you to say?
Enter the whip - you are correct, at 29 how would I understand the toll old age takes but I can look at old people and see that they loose strength, flexibility and speed with each passing year. So although I may not be able to empathize with old people, I understand thier problems through observation.
If you are stronger I beat you with speed, if you are faster I beat you with technique, If your techniques (sensitivity being one technique) are better I must beat you with more speed in my technique. You still need speed with sensitivity because if you are slooow as a turtle all the sensitivity in the world will not help you.
pvwingchun - the point is that sensitivity and structure are availabel to everyone. Some people can get speed and get really fast, some cannot. With sensitivity it allows you to make up for that deficit of speed and the structure and strong root allow you to make up for it with strength. Its why practitioners of internal arts are often practcing thier art effectively well into thier 70’s and 80’s.
Also I dont want to be worried so much about technique in that you cant play the game of chess while fighting. If you have to stop to think you will loose, if you teach yourself to respond naturally you have a much better chance. Its why we practice forms, the forms give us the precision and “muscle memory” to allow us to be effective when we are fighting and things just happen.
Forms give us a lot! If you mean correctness of structure and alignment by “precision and muccle memory” ,I agree!
Chi-sao does it’s task by allowing us to use and test all of this in a non determined way.(In a dynamic environment and with a resisting opponent)!..Just coul’nt resist that one!..
And finally,various Wing Chun drills allow us to work on a specified motion.
Now, some like to add free sparring. Nothing wrong with this if you are careful not to transform your Wing Chun into something else.
red
I agree but,
if you are slooow as a turtle all the sensitivity in the world will not help you.
No you don’t want to think just respond naturally, and if you are slow this is why your technique must be better. But slow with technique cannot beat fast with techniques. If our technical skill is equal the faster will win. Remember one of those techniques is sensitivity.
Also I am not playing chess it takes way to long 
I’m more of a checkers guy, much simpler. Chess implies that you are planning moves and thinking ahead exactly the opposite of
If you have to stop to think you will loose, if you teach yourself to respond naturally you have a much better chance.
but I do understand what you mean.
With sensitivity it allows you to make up for that deficit of speed and the structure and strong root allow you to make up for it with strength.
Exactly why WC is so effective because it allows the smaller to use superior techniques to defeat the bigger and stronger.
pvwingchun - ok, now I see where you are coming from. True, if you are fast AND have good sensitivity then you have the best of both worlds, and of course there are always exceptions to any rule.
Old Jong - Agreed, you must be careful to not fall from the wingchun tree when free sparring! I think for me the idea would be to get into contact and then use the same principles behind chi sao sparring.
“I think for me the idea would be to get into contact and then use the principles behind chi sao sparring.”
Makes sense! But, whatever the way sparring is initiated, Chi sau will switch on by itself at the first contact. (I don’t mean rolling hands). A Wing Chun guy will not break contact when engaged or jump back or make feints or whatever is usual in “sparring” as we see it most of the times.We stick,recieve/follow and strike and that’s all.
Once again I agree but if my sensitivity is not as good as yours but I am faster I can beat you if you are not fast enough to prevent whatever is happening, then your technique not to include sensitivity must be better. If I feel you move but don’t have the speed to counter then what? Don’t get me wrong sensitivity is extremely important but it is not the end all. You need to work the tool that is most effective for you at the given time. If your sensitivity is poor then you must be faster, if you are not fast then your technique must win. If I am strong and fast then your technique must be better. This whole thing is kind of a vicious cycle. One is more important then the other but which one and at which time??? I believe that at different times and ages in your life the importance of these will change…
Just remember it is all WC and in the end it is far superior to having no skills at all and what you deem important today will change tomorrow as you progress through your training:cool: .