Internal principles and the Wing Chun world

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

Red5Angel,

‘Magickal thinking’ is on second thougt a serious disservice to my many dear friends who practice a variety of paths with ‘the method of science and aim of religion’. Your untutored dogmatism would be a joke in the occult world as well as the martial.

Why are strength and speed drills missing the point? When you can toss some one around like a rag doll isn’t that strength? When they move and you arrive first isn’t that speed? Which strength and which speed, how is is gained, these things are the relevant questions.

You don’t need speed with sensitivity? Think about that statement a bit. It’s essentially indefensible- no matter how sensitive you are, if you can’t be somewhere in time to deal with incoming force, you’ll take a beating. If you use speed without the ability to change, you have certain liabilities which can be exploited, but those liabilites can only be exploited by someone ‘fast’ enough to find them (‘fast’ being a fairly complex little beast which our art approaches throught many subtle ways).

Fairy stories about old taiji masters and ‘internalists’ don’t give you a lot of credibility. The ‘don’t sweat, just push’ crowd are the people fairly universally considered responsible for the abortion which is the internal martial arts today. This approach has castrated several superb fighting systems and left behind hollow slow motion health practices. If you actually look around at the internal teachers who generate students with fighting skill while still adhering to ‘internal’ principles’ , you won’t find slow motion dance and health training. You will find ‘sensitivity’ training and copious amounts of sweat and pain. You will also find whole systems of callesthentics and body conditioning meant to develop the body connections which transmit and generate ‘internal’ power, and significant use of over-weighted weaponry and training devices. Carl ever tell you about his taiji teacher’s favorite conditioning toy- a 30lb metal ball he likes to fajing into the air and move over his body? I may be confused but I believe he’s the Chen stylist well known for that. That’s not weight-lifting or power training?

Neither you nor I know how good Yip Man was, nor do we have access to his training regimens at different points in his development. Personally, I don’t take the images of cachetic man with terminal cancer to be the apogee of a brilliant career in martial arts, as so many seem to.

You argue that strength and speed fade with age. Why are so many athletes maintaining elite level performance into their forties and fifties today- scientific conditioning. Believe it or not, there is some rationale behind how the body works, grows, and learns. Some of this knowlege has been around for a long time other bits are just coming to light. Your disdain for sweat and work ignores both some of the oldest truths in fighting conditioning and the newest.

Andrew

22

Andrew - "Your untutored dogmatism would be a joke in the occult world as well as the martial. "

Your statement here shows you are not worth talking with this about. You are as obviously steeped in your beliefs as you accuse me of being. I can respect strong beliefes and even strong opinions but not when they come off a forked tongue. In the future, if you wish to hold a discussion I recommend you try a freindlier tone and leave out accusations. Dont presume to know me or what it is I believe or train. This forum is for discussion, and unless you come to my house or my school and trian what I train and talk to me personally then you have no basis for which to stand on when making presumptions.

23

Sensitivity at a high level can beat all forms of speed, as the guy will be tighter and more rigid and will get hit, as well as being able to neutralize what ever he throws

As for internal well, Master Chen only weighs 120 and I know he can really hurt me badly if he hits me

as for sensitivity it can always beat speed, who cares once I attach to you you lose, as I feel you and you will not be able do anything without me knowing it, so try as hard as you want but I will always have the line and you will lose. Also the moment you think speed you lose because you have tighten a little and that means now you will have to untighten before you hit…now that means you will have to make 2 moves to my one, and I do not
care how fast you think you are you can never make 2 moves to my one

24

Internal, big motions

r5a writes:
> Well, lets start by taking economy of motion. If you dont have
> any internal power, dont know how to unify your entire body
> behind your actions then you have to work with speed and
> strength, making large moves to build up power for your strike.

How many different forms of Taiji have you seen? How about Ba Gua, Baji, Xing Yi, or Water Boxing? All of these have very large motions, some of them use lots of speed in their forms. Of course, a lot of these people can pack a lot of power into a small motion, but then, how about Wing Chun’s short punch?

A lot of Wing Chun people, from several different lineages, can release that kind of power, and I have yet to hear any of them describe it as “internal”. Bruce Lee, who did lots of weights and plenty of speed training, could still propel people long distances with his 1-inch punch. Hawkins Cheung, a tiny guy, can also send people flying, as can be demonstrated in some of his videos. Emin Boztepe also packs quite a short-punch according to some reviews. I’m sure the list goes on and on and on.

> You are as obviously steeped in your beliefs as you accuse me
> of being. I can respect strong beliefes and even strong
> opinions but not when they come off a forked tongue.

I have heard similar lines from fundamentalists from several different religions… how rarely do they look in the mirror…

25

I remember reading that while in FatShan, Yip Man used to make body armor out of straw and go full-force with his sparring partners.

-FJ

26

Aelward, I understand what you are saying about the internal artist and big movements, but I practice wingchun and those are out of place in wing chuns principles of economy.

"A lot of Wing Chun people, from several different lineages, can release that kind of power, and I have yet to hear any of them describe it as “internal”. "

People argue over what is internal and external all the time, is it Qi? Is it structure, or timing? Semantics can be argued here all day. It woul dhave been interesting to see Bruce Lee at 60, however we will most likely see Emin at 50 and then we will see how his training has held up.

“I have heard similar lines from fundamentalists from several different religions… how rarely do they look in the mirror…”

The point of this comment was to say that if you are going to cleanoff someone elses porch you should make sure yours is clean first. Andrew might have a good argument but I am not interested in a discussion that starts out with incivility.

27

Originally posted by red5angel
Dont presume to know me or what it is I believe or train. This forum is for discussion, and unless you come to my house or my school and trian what I train and talk to me personally then you have no basis for which to stand on when making presumptions.

Incapable of perceiving his own darkness the little pot whines and calls the kettle black.

28

red5

It’s starting to sound like you got some of the right answers but all the wrong reasons. Are all your arguments here just misunderstood quotes from your seniors!!!:rolleyes:

29

Sunkuen, what do you mean wrong reasons? Would you mind elaborating please?

30

ok red

I will, but i’m off to class now… I’m gonna let you think about it for awhile first and maybe you’ll figure it out on your own.

31

Sensitivity at a high level can beat all forms of speed, as the guy will be tighter and more rigid and will get hit, as well as being able to neutralize what ever he throws

Not so the more relaxed you are the more speed you have, the less tense the more speed, the more rigid you are the slower you are. So someone tense and rigid will be slower. This is one of the primary reasons for relaxation.

as for sensitivity it can always beat speed, who cares once I attach to you you lose, as I feel you and you will not be able do anything without me knowing it, so try as hard as you want but I will always have the line and you will lose.

Not so if I someone is faster than you even though you feel them move you have to be fast eough to counter unless you are fast enough to counter you will be beat. If you are fast enough to counter then your premise holds if you are not fast enough to counter you are beat. As you attach you are right they will not be able to do anything without you knowing, knowing that you are about to get hit by someone with superior speed, because as I said if you are not fast enough to counter your sensitivity has done you no good.

I want to have good sensitivity and good speed. Without at least enough speed to properly counter then your sensitivity is no good.

32

OK, well have fun at class, I am soon off to vacation and lots of training!!!

33

I would agree with sunkuen somewhat. I think you should try to explore your principles deeper and the interaction between them. No one principle stands alone but work in coordination with the others, therefore no one technique stands alone.

34

pvwingchun - of course I am always training and getting new perspectives on my art, as well as discussing on this forum.

“Not so the more relaxed you are the more speed you have, the less tense the more speed”

I dont necessarily believe this to be true. To provide that speed you need energy, which is provided by your muscle, to go faster you need more energy which means you draw more on your muscle.

35

Try tensing your your upper body and punching then relax your upper body and punch. You will find yourself faster when you are relaxed.

36

Sensitivity at a high level can beat all forms of speed, as the guy will be tighter and more rigid and will get hit, as well as being able to neutralize what ever he throws

Disregarding the syntactic problems with that statement, it seems to assume you are always in contact, which is not the case, a reason why chi sao and contact sensitivity drills are not the be all and end all of WC training.

If you include visual sensitivity, I can buy it to some degree.

Speed comes from removal of UNNECESSARY tension from the structure. Also from movement efficiency, which is one of WC’s goals last time I looked. It doesn’t follow that a fast person is tense and rigid, the reverse is generally the case.

You could argue that a component of sensitivity is perceptual speed, and thus speed is an attribute of sensitivity.

AndrewS, good to see you posting on here!

37

Originally posted by red5angel
[B]Andrew - "Your untutored dogmatism would be a joke in the occult world as well as the martial. "

Your statement here shows you are not worth talking with this about.

My disagreement with you and personal distaste for your dogmatism, followed by numerous supporting examples based and wider knowlege base require you to ignore me, eh?

>You are as obviously steeped in your beliefs as you accuse me of being. I can respect strong beliefes and even strong opinions but not when they come off a forked tongue.

That’s one body modification I don’t have for professional reasons, though I’ve often thought it would be fun for my lovers. Less concretely, there’s no duplicity in my disdain for you. You are the person who’s publically claiming to have the ‘one true way’ and by comparison showing immense disrespect towards a number of other expressions of the art which are not your way. I’ll agree that there is much horrid Wing Chun, but I would also say that there are many routes to excellence in the art, and your chauvanism ****es on as diverse a set of approaches as Tsui Shan Tei, Wong Shung Leung, Yuen Kay Sai (hmm, probably blew a spelling or two there).

> In the future, if you wish to hold a discussion I recommend you try a freindlier tone and leave out accusations. Dont presume to know me or what it is I believe or train.

I have great respect for Ken Chung’s approach and have little but good about him from people I respect. I’ve corresponded with a number of folks from Ken Chung line, have had many peers who’ve crossed hands with people from your line and compared notes in a friendly manner- finding far less difference than seems to be your party line, have met Carl and had some pleasant exchanges with a few of his students, one of my old training partners worked out with Carl for a few months after I left town, and I spent the weekend before last working with one of your old training partners, so I might know a little about what you do.

You, on the other hand, are an ass and an idiot, and were you my junior making such statements in public I would make a serious attempt to educate you as to the foolishness of your behavior.

> This forum is for discussion, and unless you come to my house or my school and trian what I train and talk to me personally then you have no basis for which to stand on when making presumptions. [/B]

Your public statements are sufficient basis for my presumption of your idiocy.

Later,

Andrew

AndrewN- good to catch you again, man. Ed Yuen rolled through LA from down your way a while back. You ever meet up with him?

38

Its from experience. Sure you can do speed drills and strength drills but then you are missing the point.

Yes, I’m sure your experience is massive - you sound like a well of knowledge. There is a point at which you will stop simply repeating the concepts you have heard spoken and blindly repeat, and come to understand them. At this point you will hopefully come to realise the concepts that are taught to beginners are there as fundamentals so that your training does not suffer when you begin. Training speed over technique is wrong, because to a point good technique will always beat speed - especially if that speed has bad technique. But then consider that good technique will be relaxed, will move as little as possible, and will use chi sao - this is why they’ll win. If you start to even up the odds a bit and throw in some technique and chi sao with that speed, then someone who isn’t as good will be able to put in a hit on you whenever and wherever they want. This is my experience, based on what I have seen, what I have been told, and what I have done myself.

I agree that excessive strength is not a requirement for wing chun because of the way we use our muscles, but speed is like chi sao - you don’t have to use it, you can fight without it, but why would you want to when you get it for free?

Instead of doing all those pushups and situps and speed drills try sensitivity drills, working on your structure, see if something diffent doesnt come from it. . . . Anyway, doing the pushups and situps and speed drils and the weight lifting is a way to go, but its not the wing chun path and that path fades with each passing year as your strength and speed succumb to age.

Thanks for the training tip, but you’re not telling me anything I don’t already know.

Again, speed is good, sensitivity is good, speed with sensitivity is better. Sifu Tsui Seung Tin was once asked how much speed he thought he’d lost over the years, to which he replied about 10%. You may lose all your strength in old age, your bones may become brittle, but if I lose just 10% of my speed then that’s very acceptable.

Dont presume to know me or what it is I believe or train. This forum is for discussion, and unless you come to my house or my school and trian what I train and talk to me personally then you have no basis for which to stand on when making presumptions.

I could do what several others have done and make an indirect reference to this, but I prefer to voice my mind. This is possibly the most hypocritical thing you’ve posted on here. Please quit trying to tell us all about the greatness of Carl, as you don’t know the skill of the practioners on the forum, nor our Sifu’s or Sigung’s skill. For all you know, we could all be better than Carl, let alone yourself. Similarly, please quit trying to explain that we don’t train the right way, that we don’t do things as well as you do, and that we’re all training in McDojo’s. I often wonder why you never seem to be singing the praises of your Sifu Michael - why is it always Carl? If you like, the rest of can list off our Sifu’s and Sigung’s so that you realise we’re not all training in the dark. Your enthusiasm is commendable, your discussion is good, but your posts need to be trimmed to just that - discussion - not preaching.

DISCLAIMER
This post is not intended to offend, insult or otherwise antagonise any of the people mentioned within. Take the time to consider this while you’re reading.

39

red

What I meant was this…
Your saying to not use speed or strength. I believe you think the speed and the strength are completely tossed aside in favor of sensitivity. We refrain from relying on muscle strength while doing chi sau so that we can use that sensitivity to feel our opponents and our own weaknesses. We must use a little “muscle” to keep the forward energy thing happening. We don’t rely on speed in chi sau to hit our kf brother so fast that he cannot even react. This type of chi sau is competitive minded and not really desireable. When we can flow into our opponents openings (lau) and keep them open by using our relaxed wing chun structure to immobilize their defenses then we’re headed in the right direction. Speed kills!!! Develop your power on the dummy not your kf brother. We must use speed however in our defense because when being attacked you end up being a beat behind your partner. “He strikes first but I land my strike first” This is in defense mode and it ain’t gonna work if your too slow. Thats enuff to think about for now. Answer this question red…Do any of your kf brothers use strength in chi sau and if so how do you know?
Rip me a new asshole if i missed anything but i’m really tired at the moment

R.I.P
Longwindedkuen!!!

p.s. You can bet your ass that when I hit you it will be with all the speed and strength i got!!!

40

A different perspective

I have no illusion about speed and strength - they can be very effective. This has been demonstrated for millennia, and in virtually every culture.

There will always be enough fast, strong people who can beat me up, and I’d consider myself a danged fool to laugh it off.

The caveat is, I don’t believe this is the optimal emphasis for someone like me.

My perspective is largely based on the laws of diminishing return, and acceptance of my own limitations. I can never compete with the big or athletic boys on their terms. As I’m not getting any younger, things are only going to worsen for me in that regard.

Having said that, I do indeed want to have speed - in a sense. However, I seek to develop speed in a way other than reliance on athleticism. We have a saying about this: “It doesn’t matter who is faster; it matters who arrives first.”

I also don’t disregard strength. However, I have chosen to place my own emphasis instead on power. For someone like me, there is a critical distinction.

Plagiarizing my own recent post in another forum, here is the gist of how I’ve been taught and how I focus my practice. Emphasis for training and application, in the following order:

  1. Position
  2. Sensitivity
  3. Power

Within these, are the following implicit steps and attributes:

  1. Structure (e.g., posture, rooting, and body unity) is a prerequisite.
    2a) Timing
    2b) Speed

Again, speaking from my own paradigm of course, all the factors are related and interdependent.

Timing and Speed result primarily as functions of Position and Sensitivity, and Power is largely derived from Structure.

My chosen performance and development model is appropriately in keeping with the notion of a “woman’s art,” i.e., the smaller, weaker, more physically disadvantaged party.

Yeah I know, Yuanfen, pare a dime. :smiley:

Originally posted by sunkuen
p.s. You can bet your ass that when I hit you it will be with all the speed and strength i got!!!

I respect that. Since I cannot compete, all the more incentive for me to work very diligently to develop high levels of precision and sensitivity, in conjunction with sufficient experience to exploit any over commitments or the most subtle vulnerabilities of my athletic betters. I’m not saying this is easy for me, only that it is essential.

FWIW, one of the scariest people I’ve played with so far was my Hung Ga friend. While there are obvious differences in our approaches, he does indeed have a solid root, a mobile stance, enormous control, and he is very precise. To my misfortune, those skills are combined with a huge and cut build, great speed, strength and power. My only conceivable hope with someone so gifted, other than luck, is to have superior sensitivity, timing, position, and precision, combined with sufficient experience to exploit his vulnerabilities. As of yet, I simply see no other way to compete with his assets.

And at the end of the day, I have what I have. No more and no less. I have no illusion of guarantees. The best and most reasonable thing I can hope for and expect is to improve my odds yet a little more tomorrow.

Just a different perspective.

Regards,

  • Kathy Jo

P.S. As always, any and all insights I may have are owed to my teacher. Any shortcomings in my understanding or expression belong wholly to me.