Kind of an aside to the “Sparring without Instructor” thread.
I find that when I spar with medium or heavier contact, I frequently get injured. Right now I’m nearly recovered from a frustrating month with a badly bruised rib.
Light sparring is fun and fine, and what I usually do, but lacks the feel of “reality.”
For those of you who spar hard on a regular basis, what do you do to avoid injuries?
open territory
You ask a valid question and I will give you a valid answer based upon my experience with sparring.
Open Territory
In the Kung Fu world, there is a concept known as ‘open territory’. People who are not open territory are- old people, children and babies, mothers and women in general (they replenish our species), the crippled and infirmed, injured fighters (let them heal), and anyone not willing to engage in the Fighting Circle.
The Kung Fu warrior does not look down upon or look up to anyone because of their station and life. The Kung Fu warrior treats all people with courtesy and respect at all times. He hides his skills and acts meekly before all people. Kindness comes from strength, not weakness. The warrior walks in hidden power. No one knows what he is capable of or that it even exists.
The only time a Kung Fu warrior has the moral right to engage the untrained is when protecting family and friends from an unprovoked life and death situation. In such a situation, the five levels of engagement ensue. They are: evade, block and counter, block with pain, maime, and kill. The Kung Fu warrior must be prepared to accept the consequences of the laws of society in the event that maiming or killing must be done.
When engaging a challenge on the Fighting Circle, agree to a level of engagement. If the other person does not agree to any level of engagement, then walk away. The potential consequences far outweigh the training opportunity. The Kung Fu warrior may only challenge and engage other Kung Fu warriors of equal or superior ability for the reason of improving his own skill. If the engagment is friendly, the level of engagment can be agreed upon, up to the level of block with pain. At no time is the maiming or killing levels of engagment acceptable, even with a serious challenge.
When sparring a younger practitioner for the sake of training, always spar the student at their own level of ability or just slightly more, so as to evoke learning and progress from them. Never beat on younger students and do not allow advanced students to beat on them either.When fighting someone with less training, fight just slightly above their level so as to fine tune and control the level of engagement, at the same time assisting the other person in upgrading their art.
When a Kung Fu warrior is challenged by an advanced student, dish out exactly what they try to dish out with just slightly more, to warn them what can happen. If they are foolish and try to hurt you, rather than hurt them, call the engagment off and send them home for the day, to cool off. When one student knocks another student down or out; do not let the knocked out student spar any more that day. Make them stand up, talk, and walk around for a while to make sure they do not have concussion, which can be serious.
In the Fighting Circle, there are only two positions. In the middle defending turf, or on the circle, probing and attempting to penetrate. These two positions change constantly. This is the microcosmic crucible that represents the struggle of life. All of discrepancies of character, strengths, and weaknesses will be revealed in the Fighting Circle. Do not spar everyday. Spar only if there is a good reason to do so on both parts. Spar whenever you have a lesson to be learned such as a particular technique or fighting concept that needs developing. While sparring, spar slowly and use authentic Kung Fu, utilizing the five principles of combat-breathwork, bridgework, center, focus, and timing. If one of the five principles is missing, use the other four to find it. Train to get better, not to be a tough guy. Training, not toughness.
-Excerpt from “Becoming a Gung Fu Fighter”, SKM, © 1998
[QUOTE=ShaolinDan;1259209]Kind of an aside to the “Sparring without Instructor” thread.
I find that when I spar with medium or heavier contact, I frequently get injured. Right now I’m nearly recovered from a frustrating month with a badly bruised rib.
Light sparring is fun and fine, and what I usually do, but lacks the feel of “reality.”
For those of you who spar hard on a regular basis, what do you do to avoid injuries?[/QUOTE]
I guess you got to assess what your most common injuries are and work on ways to avoid them. My most common problems are bone bruises to my shins and pulled muscles during clinching/throwing.
The past couple years I have focused more on my shin conditioning, which has really helped, along with being better about wearing decent shin pads…another problem with that is I often spar much larger men, with much bigger legs. I have to be a lot more careful picking my shots with them, to not have my kicks checked or hit shin to shin.
The pulled muscles usually aren’t a problem if I do a solid 10 minutes of stretching, instead of just a few quick half-hearted stretches before jumping in the ring. I know that’s on me when it happens.
For worse injuries, (like your ribs,) you really got to let that heal. Seems like every time I spar hard with an injury it gets hit again…then it takes way to long to heal. I did that last year with my hip blade, I got kneed and it bruised pretty good, the next week I was sparring a bigger guy and took a real solid punch in the exact same spot, (weird situation.) It took a solid month before I could spar; and I was gun shy about that hip for quite a while after…
I used to use Kendo equipment to train full contact. The only problem is since it doesn’t hurt, you may get lazy to block any body punch.
http://imageshack.us/a/img545/4410/gd98.png
I also use my bullet-proof vest (my birthday gift) for full contact on the body too.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1259225]
I also use my bullet-proof vest (my birthday gift)[/QUOTE]
Your worried about one of those “internal only” guys doing you in, aren’t you…
If you spar with any reasonable amount of force on a consistent basis, you’re going to get injuries. If you continue to spar without properly resting and healing these injuries, like most of us, these injuries will become exacerbated. Exacerbated injuries will exponentionally increase the frequency and duration of which you are unable to spar. Eventually, these injuries will be beyond repair and you will no longer be able to spar. Thus, proper sparring leads to not sparring.
When sparring a younger practitioner for the sake of training, always spar the student at their own level of ability or just slightly more, so as to evoke learning and progress from them. Never beat on younger students and do not allow advanced students to beat on them either.When fighting someone with less training, fight just slightly above their level so as to fine tune and control the level of engagement, at the same time assisting the other person in upgrading their art.
I whole heartedly agree with this statement. In fact, I agree with everything you said SKM. In our system we say fight to your opponents ability. And, if it’s a real fight, then fight until there’s no fight left in your opponent. This does not mean kill, it just means you are obligated to stop beating them up when they stop attacking you.
ShaolinDan, If you have sparring partners who do not live by this, but instead are there to feed their own egos then I’d suggest moving on. If a student is regularly showing their psycho nature and hurting people on purpose then the instructor or his best student…whoever wears the black hat…should run them out of the school. Violently if needed.
Miyamoto Musashi said in the Book of Five Rings that an injury sustained in martial training should be considered as equal to an injury sustained in battle. I believe he was making the point that martial training is combat training which is serious war training. People should respect this concept because what they are learning can do serious damage to people so it should not be taken lightly.
[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1259228]Your worried about one of those “internal only” guys doing you in, aren’t you…[/QUOTE]
You won’t believe what kind of birthday gift that I have received every year. Besides bullet-proof vest, I also received stun gun, pepper spray, Star War sword, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon sword, Walther PPK, …
http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=A0PDoS4.EspS238Azc.JzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTIzcWVuZWFzBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZAMxYTU5NDg3NDY2MTg0MGUyNTBmZTQyMjAxZDlkZTk3ZARncG9zAzE2BGl0A2Jpbmc-?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch%3Fp%3Dcrush%2Btiger%2Band%2Bhidden%2Bdragon%2Bsword%26type%3Dch.31.vs.dsp.17-02.us.dis_oc._._%26fr2%3Dpiv-web%26hsimp%3Dyhs-fh_lsonsw%26hspart%3Davg%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D16&w=600&h=332&imgurl=cdn2.armslist.com%2Fsites%2Farmslist%2Fuploads%2Fposts%2F2013%2F11%2F18%2F2348478_02_crouching_tiger_hidden_dragon__640.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armslist.com%2Fposts%2F2348478%2Fhampton-roads-virginia-knives-for-sale--crouching-tiger-hidden-dragon-green-destiny-sword-gim&size=33.2KB&name=…±+For+Sale%3A+Crouching+%3Cb%3ETiger+Hidden+Dragon+%3C%2Fb%3EGreen+Destiny+%3Cb%3ESword%3C%2Fb%3E%2FGim&p=crush+tiger+and+hidden+dragon+sword&oid=1a594874661840e250fe42201d9de97d&fr2=piv-web&fr=&tt=…±+For+Sale%3A+Crouching+%3Cb%3ETiger+Hidden+Dragon+%3C%2Fb%3EGreen+Destiny+%3Cb%3ESword%3C%2Fb%3E%2FGim&b=0&ni=21&no=16&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=143smulpt&sigb=15i79d4ft&sigi=13b8740fq&.crumb=a2AxsuAlVbJ&type=ch.31.vs.dsp.17-02.us.dis_oc..&hsimp=yhs-fh_lsonsw&hspart=avg
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;1259231]Thus, proper sparring leads to not sparring.[/QUOTE]
That’s what concerns me.
I’ve read about your (and other’s) long-term injuries on here, and taken it to heart. The challenge seems to be finding the balance between training hard enough and often enough to fight well, verses preventing chronic injuries that inhibit one’s ability to fight. For my goals I’d prefer to err on the side of too little hard contact…but I’d like to have as much as I can without crossing that line. Tricky problem with a lot of luck and random chance mixed in. Appreciate reading everyone’s thoughts.
[QUOTE=GoldenBrain;1259236]
ShaolinDan, If you have sparring partners who do not live by this, but instead are there to feed their own egos then I’d suggest moving on. If a student is regularly showing their psycho nature and hurting people on purpose then the instructor or his best student…whoever wears the black hat…should run them out of the school. Violently if needed.
[/QUOTE]
Well, the last couple injuries were not from guys in my school. One (a badly jammed finger…nothing debilitating, but still annoying) was a kung fu teacher from another school who stopped by for a friendly exchange…he was much more experienced and much better than me. I have no idea how/when I hurt my finger, I was too busy getting punched in the face to notice when it happened. 
The latest (the ribs) was at this very cool open sparring exchange that’s been organized in my area. Guy who got me (roundhouse kick to the ribs) was an MMA type. Probably ten years younger and thirty pounds heavier than me…
The sparring exchange is a little dangerous, we’re all taking a chance sparring with people we don’t really know…but how can I pass up an opportunity to spar with a dozen different people from a half dozen styles in one afternoon? The simple solution would be to avoid the young men as they have too much to prove…but if I can’t hang with them, then what’s the point? :o
Anyway, there was nothing psycho about either of these guys. They were just larger and more aggressive than I am. I have a light frame with small bones, which is problematic for hand to hand combat (probably good for sword fighting though 
).
[QUOTE=GoldenBrain;1259236]Miyamoto Musashi said in the Book of Five Rings that an injury sustained in martial training should be considered as equal to an injury sustained in battle. I believe he was making the point that martial training is combat training which is serious war training. People should respect this concept because what they are learning can do serious damage to people so it should not be taken lightly.[/QUOTE]
Good point.
Another thing we need to consider is that, until fairly recent history and modern medicine, many injuries we think of as non-life-threatening, or fairly minor, could easily have resulted in disability or death, from infection, etc., far more easily than today. In Musashi’s time, MA training was not taken up as a pastime. But hard combative training was and still always carries a risk, though.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1259238]You won’t believe what kind of birthday gift that I have received every year. Besides bullet-proof vest, I also received stun gun, pepper spray, Star War sword, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon sword, Walther PPK, … [/QUOTE]
Can’t she just get you a nice package of noodles?
[QUOTE=ShaolinDan;1259240]Well, the last couple injuries were not from guys in my school. One (a badly jammed finger…nothing debilitating, but still annoying) was a kung fu teacher from another school who stopped by for a friendly exchange…he was much more experienced and much better than me. I have no idea how/when I hurt my finger, I was too busy getting punched in the face to notice when it happened.
The latest (the ribs) was at this very cool open sparring exchange that’s been organized in my area. Guy who got me (roundhouse kick to the ribs) was an MMA type. Probably ten years younger and thirty pounds heavier than me…
The sparring exchange is a little dangerous, we’re all taking a chance sparring with people we don’t really know…but how can I pass up an opportunity to spar with a dozen different people from a half dozen styles in one afternoon? The simple solution would be to avoid the young men as they have too much to prove…but if I can’t hang with them, then what’s the point? :o
Anyway, there was nothing psycho about either of these guys. They were just larger and more aggressive than I am. I have a light frame with small bones, which is problematic for hand to hand combat (probably good for sword fighting though ).[/QUOTE]
Ahh, good times! 
I see what you’re saying and it doesn’t seem like you’re in a place full of egoists. It’s hard not to be more competitive in the type of sparring exchanges you described above so there’s bound to be injuries. I would definitely view those injuries as accidents. So, with that said, all you can do is work on that iron shirt my friend!
I jammed three of my fingers so bad one time by down blocking a kick with my fingers pointed down (dumb). They were bruised from the knuckles to the fingertips. OUCH!
[QUOTE=Jimbo;1259243]Good point.
Another thing we need to consider is that, until fairly recent history and modern medicine, many injuries we think of as non-life-threatening, or fairly minor, could easily have resulted in disability or death, from infection, etc., far more easily than today. In Musashi’s time, MA training was not taken up as a pastime. But hard combative training was and still always carries a risk, though.[/QUOTE]
Someone I know just had a friend die from a broken ankle. Apparently they didn’t give her any blood thinners to prevent clots. Scary stuff.
[QUOTE=GoldenBrain;1259245]Ahh, good times! I see what you’re saying and it doesn’t seem like you’re in a place full of egoists. It’s hard not to be more competitive in the type of sparring exchanges you described above so there’s bound to be injuries. I would definitely view those injuries as accidents. So, with that said, all you can do is work on that iron shirt my friend!
I jammed three of my fingers so bad one time by down blocking a kick with my fingers pointed down (dumb). They were bruised from the knuckles to the fingertips. OUCH![/QUOTE]
More iron body (and hands and shins) conditioning (I’ve been pretty lax lately) was one of my thoughts. I’m sure it would help, but with such a light frame, I’m not sure how far it will take me. I guess there’s only one way to find out. :o
[QUOTE=ShaolinDan;1259247]More iron body (and hands and shins) conditioning (I’ve been pretty lax lately) was one of my thoughts. I’m sure it would help, but with such a light frame, I’m not sure how far it will take me. I guess there’s only one way to find out. :o[/QUOTE]
You can do it homie! If you don’t mind me asking what is your weight/height?
I’m not trying to be c0cky here but I’m 5’10" and weigh 155-160 at my tournament weight. I walk around at about 165 - 170 lbs. I can totally work dudes twice my size and I credit my kung-fu and iron body training for that. Of course, 30 years of study/experience in something like 15 or more styles and good genetics help. I love when my pro MMA buddies say “you learned that in kung-fu?” Bwaaaahahahahahahaha!!! It’s like the MMA crowd has forgotten where fighting arts originated from. :rolleyes:
I’m not sure what conditioning you have but if you put in the time with iron body it will definitely pay you dividends. If you are small and fast then use that to your advantage. Kinetic energy (speed) equals power! And, if you harden your body in a safe and correct way you will be able to absorb or deflect stuff that knocks the average citizen out. Again, I’m not trying to brag but rather serve as an example.
I would also suggest this. When you fight more experienced fighters, especially talented sifu’s and the pro’s, then observe what favorite techniques they use. Everybody has their own flavor and favorite techniques so pay attention to what works for them. If they use them effectively against you then it’s something that works against others. Take the few favorites from all the masters you work with and you can almost create a style from that alone. Once you see what works for them then incorporate that into your personal inventory of skills and you will see yourself improving exponentially. Since you are smaller and probably faster then work the center line off of 45 degree angles from the outside-in and straight blast your opponents each time you regain that center line. Train to be an inside fighter since your are small. Don’t use long range techniques with guys that have longer reach. Jump inside and work their aZZ. Sweep and throw often to discourage your opponent, wear them out, and cause damage at the same time. The more they are thrown down and get up the more tired they will be and when you see them huffing wind jump in and capitalize.
I could go on and on, but you get the idea. Best of luck and remember, preserve yourself through effective defense (which can also be offense;)), be patient, smile and capitalize on whatever opening you can create. Don’t listen to those who say you need a mean face. Smiling is iron head! It is also disconcerting to your opponent. It might piZZ them off but that can also be to your advantage. Smiling elevates stress, helps you mind to work better and hardens the muscles around your jaw and temple.
wearing good gear and not having a mental patient as your partner
[QUOTE=ShaolinDan;1259209]Kind of an aside to the “Sparring without Instructor” thread.
I find that when I spar with medium or heavier contact, I frequently get injured. Right now I’m nearly recovered from a frustrating month with a badly bruised rib.
Light sparring is fun and fine, and what I usually do, but lacks the feel of “reality.”
For those of you who spar hard on a regular basis, what do you do to avoid injuries?[/QUOTE]
Conditioning is key to preventing injury.
Not that it’s a panacea, but it helps a lot to condition your body to be struck via various methods.
Sparring is almost never going to be a scenario where injuries do not occur.
The important thing is to not spar with ego. Because that turns into a quick pile of shyte an detracts from learning.
[QUOTE=ShaolinDan;1259209]Kind of an aside to the “Sparring without Instructor” thread.
I find that when I spar with medium or heavier contact, I frequently get injured. Right now I’m nearly recovered from a frustrating month with a badly bruised rib.
Light sparring is fun and fine, and what I usually do, but lacks the feel of “reality.”
For those of you who spar hard on a regular basis, what do you do to avoid injuries?[/QUOTE]
Do you do any grappling? You will suffer less injuries if you include grappling sparring into your training.
@GoldenBrain: Thanks man, good tips. I’m 5’8", between 135-140lbs…before starting kung fu and getting mabu thighs, I weighed 125 lbs for years. BTW I do smile a lot when sparring, it’s a game after all.
@SavvySavage: I usually spar with both striking and grappling…I find this can be problematic though, as striking is usually done with reduced power and grappling is not…can be misleading and also difficult for people to keep adjusting their force output.
@everyone: Thanks. Seems like iron body conditioning is a must…but that’s going to take some time to make a difference, so any other suggestions to keep going in the meantime are appreciated.
I know there’s been a thread on sparring gear before…When I spar I usually just wear cup, mouthguard, light shin pads and mma gloves (or nothing for light sparring). Sometimes I will wear boxing gloves for heavier hitting. Any thoughts on chest guards? Would have saved my ribs this last time, but I hate the lack of mobility. I also want to know when I get hit.
