full contact

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

Well I know that we all have diferent views on the proper sparing technique and stratagey of how to teach students. I simply do not let my students wear pads nor do I let them go full bore we spar at full contact (no pads and almost no rules) this is so that sparing can be spontaniuse and the student or students know how to hit and to feel pain and live through it . Lets face it I would rather know how a full on punch feels before I get in a fight on the street so that I wouldent panic and my students will not.

I was just wonduring other peoples ideas on sparing and or how you teach your students. The only rules for my student are .

  1. No full contact to the face.
  2. No eye Gouges.
    3.No boxing the easr
    4.No breacking of the limbs or joins such as fingers .

Even with these rules there are enjurys but far less than one might thank In the 10 years of teaching I have seen my fare share of bruises and sprains but onlt 2 broken arms and several fingers.

2

Sorry, but I believe there is a better, safer way to train.

You can still get rocked with gloves and headgear.

3

If one day that you find out that:

  • Your body has no bruises, and
  • Your don’t feel pain anywhere of your body, and
  • You thing something must be wrong and feel uncomfortable about it, then

your training is on the right track.

If your opponent did not knock you out with his first 100 punches then the chance that he could knock you out on his 101 punch will be very unlikely. That will give you confidence about yourself.

4

I agree with MK sparring gear helps fighters train more techniques for a longer time and with less injury. Body conditioning can be done outside of sparring in any case.

5

Well, 1st I think its misleading to imply that your guys are fighting full contact with little to no rules but then slip in no full contact to the face … THAT is the rule that makes all the difference in the world if you want them to know what it’s like to be in a real fight.

But honestly, we do no sparring in my master’s school … at least when he’s watching, which is pretty much all the time. We used to be able to sneak in 15 minutes here or there before class before we moved locations.

This used to bother me and had me questioning if I should stay or not at one point … but he was right.

You need to drill a lot. And we drill with boxing gloves and full, 100% punching. First you aim for the guys shield to test its power. When he gets better he puts head gear on and you go for the head. Then the gear can come off. And when you feel good about thing, no gear.

At this point, I feel I’m getting the flavor of our defense and offense. Now, 90% of my time is on ability exdercises. How to stretch the muslce to make it longer and looser. How to connect all the body joints and tissue in between to deliver power.

It sounds funny and I would normally run from this type of thing. But it worked for me and I’m glad I stuck with it. The fact that the techique impressed me and that my teacher, who is in his mid-60s and smaller than me, can beat my ass also kept me around.

In the end, I guess each school, method will find its own way.

Now, I wouldn’t want to spar my classmates. I’d rather go out to play.

6

IMO, if it’s not full contact to the face, it’s not full contact. that said, I am a big believer in gear. At the very least, everyone needs gloves and a mouthpiece. Headgear is a good thing also. Unless you guys are fighting professionally, you have no need to risk head trauma. even with gloves and gear, full contact - REALLY going full contact - still hurts plenty. If you want to retain the use of fingers for grabbing, wear MMA gloves. they allow hand dexterity and have less padding.

Also, according to your rules, throat strikes are allowed…

7

well when I said that there was full contact but holding back that is full contact traning to me as far as class goes . Witch one of you knows what it is like to break your hand on the jaw of a classmate and be able to keep fighting? gloves and head gear do not always protect you and in my expirence most not all mind you but most people trained in pads when confronted punch like they are still wearing the pads for example. I have spared many different styles . A Kenpo master sparred me at my Sifu"s school when he dilevered a punch it would consistantly be out of reach by one to 2 inches…why? He openy addmited that it was from wearing and traning with pads. And yes Throught strikes are allowed only when A sifu is in the school…Why? because myself and all my master students aka sifu’s are trained to relive the choking muscles and sweling. Also my wife is a paramedic and attends all classes if it gets to harryAnd when I say that there are pulled punches to the head they are still hard enought for some students to have blody lipds , teeth knoked out and broken noses. We dont do this to prove phisycal strength actully most of my students are average joees who want to know how to defend themselves and family. when I said we dont jit full to the head What I should have said is that we dont use the Yi quan Or shing yi strike at full projection to the head.

Regardless I was wonduring other ideas for sparing and pads after all it would increase my ability to help as many people as possible who dont want to learn in such a manner. so I thank you all for your sigestions and ideas.

8

The point is not to provide full protection, but to provide some level of protection. As for the punch stopping a few inches short, I have never had or seen that happen. I’ve never broken my hand on anyone’s jaw either, bare fisted or otherwise.

However, I think you answered your own question. for people who don’t want to spar in the manner you described, let them wear pads. Also, how do you introduce them to sparring?

9

Thank you for the time sevenstar…well we intraduce them by having a sifu spar them first so we can bring them in at 30% or so and then increase it as the confodince and skill of the student progresses. Usually in the classes they are sparing 90% of real full fighting within 2 months or so. there are the natural stragalers at 6 months or so. And the mising and coming up short happend to me once but that was enough to scare me for peoples safty…mainly my students. anyway like I said thank you for your time and insight. Lets keep this going if you have more.

10

Just wanted to throw my 2 cents into the conversation.

The original poster is my sifu, so I am obviously a bit biased towards his teaching methods seeing as how I’ve stuck with him for almost 3 years now. Here’s how I feel about the no pads vs padded sparring.

I started out a few years ago into the martial art world with Tae Kwon Do. As you all know, you wear pads out the wazoo, but I still thought that some of the kicks were pretty powerful, and I definitely had the wind knocked out of me more than once. There was definitely stiffness, and my arms and legs were just as sore as they are today after a sparring session.

However, there is a huge difference between sparring with and without pads beyond the obvious. It’s not the bare fisted punches or the kicks that are necessarily all that different. Granted, it feels a hecuva lot more painful without any gear on, but the overall effect is actually quite similar. The major difference is in the little things. The shin to shin hits… the little sacred sword hand jabs… the rake of nails across the neck… These are the pains that you just don’t feel with gear on. Simply put, they are too subtle. But believe me, they can hurt like a sonofa*****, and I would absolutely hate to feel that kind of pain for the first time in an alleyway defending my life.

As it is, my first time sparring without gear saw me drop to my knees at least a half dozen times trying to either rub the pain out of my shin or trying to catch my breath. Now, after a few years, I barely notice them. Granted, there are still kicks that nail my sternum that send my breath into orbit, and I don’t think that’s something you can EVER truly get used to, but the little things that normally would send someone to the ground don’t phase me anymore. Or, at the very least, they don’t register on my face or in my body movements which can make all the difference in a fight.

So I do see the benefits of sparring with pads on. And I even see the benefits of at least sparring with headgear and a mouthpiece (there is a student in our class who’s a businessman and wears a mouthguard so he doesn’t hurt his image), but for me, it’s been extremely beneficial sparring with no gear. I have a lot more confidence knowing that I can handle pretty much any pain someone can dish out to me on the streets and still come out even-keeled. Pads made me feel like I was in a sport, not learning how to defend myself and loved ones to the death if need be. Maybe it’s because I’ve played hockey all my life, but I just associate pads with sport. They give you a false confidence because you FEEL like nothing will hurt. On the same token, I’ve played rugby for many years, and because you can wear NO equipment (not even a cup), I’ve learned that efficiency and accuracy are bred from realizing you are vulnerable.

In short, I honestly feel that you learn a lot more about defeding yourself by sparring with no pads, and better prepare yourself for fighting in the real world. Pads can be used as a tool (i.e. to practice sparring or perhaps to better develop certain kicks/punches), but I just don’t think padded sparring truly prepares you for the pain of real fighting, especially the little strikes that are just too subtle to be accurately done with pads on.

Okay… I guess that’s more like 4 cents… but it’s how I feel on the matter.

11

Just my opinon here but if your students are breaking each other’s noses and knocking each other’s teeth out, accidentally or otherwise, then obviously they don’t have enough control to be doing the kind of sparring that you have them do. Maybe you should have them work their way up to the kind of sparring that you describe.

A thought on gloves. We don’t use them at my school, you can’t grab.

12

Thank you all for your 2 cents and 4 cents in some cases. I am really enjoying all that evereyone has to say. On the last post someone said that they dont use gloves in the school because you cannot grip. However I have used pads fo full contact weapons ( Oak and live steal) I thank you should try the Cebtury bag Gloves plenty of protection and you have cut out fingers to grab. And as for the comint on my students working there way up read my post higher where they do start of low and work there way up. Also remember sparing and fighting at our school is spontaniuse and just like on the street you cant tell the other fighter to slow down or take it easy. The pain a side effect and something you have to live through.

Let me ask you all this…My style is Northern Shaolin so 1000 Years ago did they wear pads during sparing? Did thay not hit you with a bamboo cane when you did your form wrong? That was an ok amount of pain it is the same at my school. The break in tradition was the invintion of pads.

13

Another break in tradition is that your students have lives, jobs and families outside of your kung fu school. And if they are injured they may not be able to participate in these other parts of their life.

14

Let me ask you all this…My style is Northern Shaolin so 1000 Years ago did they wear pads during sparing? Did thay not hit you with a bamboo cane when you did your form wrong?

I’m sorry I wasn’t there…I don’t know…

15

1000 years ago we didn’t have electricity so we sat in the dark

1000 years ago we didn’t have in door plumbing and we wipped our butts with leaves

1000 years ago, all of our teeth fell out by the time we were 30, then we died a year later

oh, the glorious past, let’s live in it!!!

Threads like this depress me… :frowning:

16

actually ALL of those things are present when wearing pads, when they are of a thin variety.

  1. notice I made no mention of shin pads. i said at least gloves and a mouthguard.
  2. have you ever worn the thin cloth shin guards and collided shin to shin? It still hurts if your shins aren’t conditioned to it. we’re a thai boxing class, so we clash shins all the time.
  3. As I stated in a previous post, if you want to use spear hands, wear MMA gloves. They have less padding and allow greater usage of the hand.

As it is, my first time sparring without gear saw me drop to my knees at least a half dozen times trying to either rub the pain out of my shin or trying to catch my breath.

that’s not because you wore pads. It’s because you made no other outside effort to condition your shins. You are at fault for that one.

So I do see the benefits of sparring with pads on. And I even see the benefits of at least sparring with headgear and a mouthpiece (there is a student in our class who’s a businessman and wears a mouthguard so he doesn’t hurt his image), but for me, it’s been extremely beneficial sparring with no gear. I have a lot more confidence knowing that I can handle pretty much any pain someone can dish out to me on the streets and still come out even-keeled.

To risk possibly irreversible head trauma over a possibility that most of you will never even encounter is not wise, IMO.

Pads made me feel like I was in a sport, not learning how to defend myself and loved ones to the death if need be. Maybe it’s because I’ve played hockey all my life, but I just associate pads with sport. They give you a false confidence because you FEEL like nothing will hurt. On the same token, I’ve played rugby for many years, and because you can wear NO equipment (not even a cup), I’ve learned that efficiency and accuracy are bred from realizing you are vulnerable.

here’s an experiment - go to a local boxing or thai boxing gym. Ask to spar with amateur fighters - they are required to wear headgear in matches. spar all out, balls to the wall with them. Then, determine whether or not the headgear made you feel like you couldn’t get hurt. Wearing padding does not give you a feeling of invulnerability - lack of contact does. There is a difference. Look at all of the injuries that happen in American football - I highly doubt they walk around with a feeling of invulnerability.

17

Are you guys Shou Shou, by chance?

18

Many schools that far back did not spar at all… heck, there are still schools today who frown upon it.

19

Well I am glad you thank tha mui tai have all the answers …the truth is none of us have all the answers there is only so much to do with fist and foot. On the other hand I have developed Iron leg from teaching the way I do ( No Pads ) I have sparred many Muy tai combatants and have had them limp away not from pain mind you but from either shin splints or fractures from hiting my leg. Yes I have no feeling physicaly in my shins. this is good and bad of corse but I to have it. I also have whent to other schools and spared and have done the pad thang . Sorry to burst the beubble but the amatures and the teachers at the local schools did not know how to handle the full strikes. However this has allowed me to gain some trusted student and freinds out of the school.

one thang has definatly not changed over the last 1000 years we are still all open to have our own openion and if posts like this bore you why did you respond and post back?

However thank you for the suggestion of going to the muy tai school I apreciate it. I will let you have at least one ego stroke and that it muy tai spars harder than most… :smiley:

20

Actually, having played both rugby and football, and known many footballers during my days (that’s American Football, of course), the pads DEFINITELY make the players feel invulnerable. If anything, they not only feel but are taught to hit the other player as hard as humanly possible so that the player getting tackled actually feels it through their pads. It’s one of the reasons there are so many injuries in football. Because of ego, not because of padding. They feel like they have to CREAM the other guy so they feel it. Why? Because they are wearing pads and feel like they have a point to make. Rugby, on the other, has no pads. And strangely, there are quite literally 1/3 as many injuries, professional rugby players outlast football players by a good decade, and tackles are done for accuracy and efficiency, not pain. Why? Because you aren’t wearing pads, so retaliation is one of the many concerns. If I hit someone hard over the head in football, they wouldn’t even flinch. It’s actually expected because of the helmet. However, if you tried it in rugby, the retaliation would be swift and hard.

And I really do see where you are coming from with the headgear and mouthguard. I think that they could be required wear and sparring wouldn’t suffer too much. Personally, I prefer not to wear them. I would rather know I can take a knock to my noggin’ like I would get in the “real” world. But to each his own.

As for not conditioning my shins outside of class… That’s not my fault at all. Our style is not about bashing shins. It’s not even about making leg to leg contact. It does happen in sparring, but not because it is “supposed” to. If anything, the pain of banging shins has made me learn other means of stopping a kick without risk of coming home with bruises the size of grapefruits on the front of my legs. We’re not a leg bashing style (other than knee breaks and sweeps, of course), so I have no need to “condition” my shins by banging them against something for a few hours to desensitize them. Not saying that it is a bad practice, just not needed for my style.

As for the 1,000’s of years have passed so let’s throw out tradition argument… Your examples of what has changed in the last 1,000 years is completely relative. Saying that electricity has made our lives better is completely opinion. There are plenty of people throughout the world that live complete and full lives with never turning on a single lamp. Just because it has become a societal norm does not make it better than a 1,000 years ago. Same goes for indoor plumbing. I have gone camping plenty of times where you had to dig your own toilet. You know what? I enjoyed doing it. Sounds disgusting by today’s standards, but there’s something about making your own way with just your hands and a shovel that makes you feel more in tune with things. As for teeth… well… you got me there. I definitely prefer to keep mine. So just because something has changed in the last 1,000 years, does not necessarily make it better. Nor does unchanging tradition make things worse. Some traditions have absolutely needed to change (the feminine role in society, the torturing and oppression of slaves the world over, etc.), but training for Kung Fu does not need to evolve, in my opinion.