the ideal sparring format

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

if you were to envision the ideal sparring format, what would it be? how would it reflect your training priorities? how would you make it workable (equipment, etc.)? full contact? light contact to some targets? headgear? boxing gloves? grappling gloves? takedowns allowed? etc.

i’m asking because we get into a lot of debates here about training priorities (forms or no forms, sport or traditional, and so on). yet most of us seem to agree that some form of sparring is a good thing. not all, but most.

so, if you hold that sparring is a good means to an end, then what sort of sparring format would best suit the end you have in mind?

example: i’m picturing a sparring format in which medium contact is used. strikes to sensitive targets are ‘implied’ (e.g., a kick to the thigh could be trained rather than a kick right in the knee) for safety’s sake. takedowns and grappling are encouraged.

equipment would include headgear with covered face mask, grappling gloves, cup, mouthpiece, and perhaps shin guards (individual preference).

padded sticks, rubber knives, etc. are used as well. so you have a format that embraces a full spectrum: weapons down to empty hand. obviously, certain concessions would have to be made. rubber weapons (rattan sticks are used in eskrima sparring, but the padded vests and metal headgear would make grappling a b*tch; and i’m no dog brother), slightly limited contact to allow for lighter gloves, more conducive to grappling. that sort of thing.

multiple attackers? hmm… still needs some thought.

this isn’t a competition format, mind you. just a way to train various skills within one spectrum rather than all fragmented.

how about you?

stuart b.

2

What you listed is the kind of thing I’d have in mind.

Ryu

3

ryu,

i thought it might be, as you strike me as a mixed martial artist without a specific attachment to competition. does that sound accurate?

stuart b.

4

To start:

Head gear and boxing gloves, no kicking but full power punching. Break after soemone gains considerable control. Take downs but obviously no breaking. If fighting grapplers, consider it a tap as soon as they get the KF, karate guy down. If they get them down they won, start over.

Then: Head gear, gloves, shin guards, elbow pads. Full power punching and kicking to everywhere except the supporting leg (this already is quite limiting but important to keep training partners).

I’d save the full on anything goes till you’re with outsiders you don’t want to hurt a training partner.

5

That sounds good Ap, but I don’t feel comfortable with headgear on (I feel clumsy and deaf). I guess that’s better than a busted nose or an eye injury, though.

One thing I think is a good idea is having some sparring sessions that are slightly limited every once in a while. Some examples would be no kicks or no punches (to help focus on your hands or your feet), and forcing each other to stay close (to focus on close range techniques). We do that second option when we (used to) spar (we called it “Too Close”. When people would ask us the rules, we would say “No attacking 'til you’re too close.” :slight_smile: )

6

“If fighting grapplers, consider it a tap as soon as they get the KF, karate guy down. If they get them down they won, start over.”

I think it should continue after the takedown, because it gives the “non-grappler” an opportunity to learn, experience and adjust to fighting and moving on the ground.

7

AP, that’s me in a nutshell.

Ryu

8

tigerstyle,

that’s a good point. i should have said ‘ideal free sparring format.’ in my classes now, i’m doing a lot of what i call ‘focused sparring.’ you’re working one particular idea, technique, whatever (e.g., one person is on offense, the other person is just evading, or just clinching, or just using a lead sidekick, etc.) people can train specifics without worrying about all the variables that way.

that’s the training part. but once the experimental part (the laboratory) arrives, that’s what i was thinking. when you put it all together and give it a go.

and i hear ya. nobody likes those helmets. but they definitely do beat a broken nose. besides, my feeling is this. a friend of mine doesn’t like the helmet. so we spar, and he says, “nah. i’ll be alright. i’ll risk it.” great, but it isn’t him that gets effed in that deal. it’s me. i’ll be so worried about busting his nose that he’ll be happily pummeling me in the meantime.

i view the equipment as being a courtesy to both sides in that regard. but that’s just me.

stuart b.

9

ryu,

i think that’s cool. i’m similar myself, i guess. and looking for a ‘laboratory’ to explore the possibilities. know what i mean? not a contest. just a more open-ended learning environment. (good grief. my work on education contracts is really starting to wear off on me. “open-ended learning environments.” sheesh.)

stuart b.

10

I can’t stand those face masks. Head-gear is great if you’re using considerable power, but the face cage makes it so unrealistic. You’re even training yourself to bring your power out at a place in front of their face cause you’re aiming for the mask. I’m not saying constantly breaking your nose is desirable, but if you don’t want to get hit, you probably shouldn’t be learning how to defend yourself.

11

APO…we use to have a fight club type session at our school…it focused on light vale tudo. Nothing really full power…wearing light cloves and shin pads. This is purely training…so no one got out of hand…but there was contact! In FREE SPARING it’s difficult to go full contact without getting hurt. In terms of full contact sparring…we just kickbox or do san shou without the ground grappling. Cause once u’re on the bottom and the top guy start punching…u could easily suffer a concussion with your head bouncing off the hard mats.

12

taijiquan_student,

sorry, but i don’t find that a very reasonable objection.

does it make more sense to get the living daylights kicked out of yourself in order to learn how NOT to get the living daylights kicked out of yourself?

the face mask sticks out by very little. so little, in fact, that you’ll still feel a punch in the face on the end of your nose. all it does is prevent the fist from continuing into your nose, while still affording you the opportunity to learn about rolling with a punch. you absorb impact, but not in a body part that isn’t designed very well for impact.

as for the self defense thing, if i’m ever attacked, i’ll be elated to get away from it with JUST a broken nose. but for my practice sessons, i’d rather come away from those ready to practice again.

a face mask is a concession. no doubt about it. but it’s one of many. without the face mask, you’re making other concessions. or are you telling me that when you spar someone without a face mask, you go full tilt for their face? because if you don’t, you’ve made as unrealistic a concession as i have. and if you do, then there are probably a lot of injuries, which is even less productive.

this isn’t badminton, i’ll grant you that. injury is inevitable. but disregarding viable equipment is a bit like expecting SWAT teams to train exclusively with live fire or else be accused of not being serious about what they do.

stuart b.

13

It’s kinda funny when I hear people say they spar without headgear of some sort…if they CONSTANTLY sparred like this…either they’re just holding back/point fighting or someone is really really cut up face wise and had mad concussions.

14

legend,

that makes a lot of sense. perhaps different equipment and formats to train different aspects of the art. boxing gloves to train more contact and learn to deal with the shock, rolling with it, the psychological and physiological reaction, etc. and lighter gear and contact to train with more variables, techniques, etc.

the inclusion of sticks and knives, too, would give people exposure to considerations they might have ignored in the past too. as an example, you’ve got the grappler that closes on a kicker only to discover that the kicker also has a knive in his waistband. now what happens? conversely, the kicker keeps someone at bay with a good stiff sidekick. what happens when someone has the option of smacking him across the shin with a stick?

this is all very theoretical right now, mind you. not sure when and if i’d be able to start using this (especially given that i’d be forking out for the equipment myself; equipment enough for at least two people at a time).

stuart b.

15

legend,

i agree. if you’re not using a face mask, then you’re compromising in some other fashion. i’m not saying that a face mask is an absolute must. only that it’s no less ‘realistic’ than any other compromise we make in training.

what i’ve noticed is how difficult it is for a lot of students to throw a good clean jab/cross. why? because they don’t want to drive their fists (gloves) into a friend’s unprotected face. so instead, they train themselves to throw wider, more obvious shots that pose less of a threat to classmates.

the face masks are uncomfortable and hot, they obscure your vision a bit, and they make you look like a tool. but they do help to ensure that you get to keep doing this stuff.

stuart b.

16

If one of these guys who specialize in taking down, Judo, BJJ, ect, the only thing to practice is dialing 911 with the remaining good limbs.

To practice ground fighting, my old sensei would have us sit on the ground, back to back, say start, and then go from there, getting in and out of holds.

But in an actual fight, with gear, with adrenaline, with full speed moves, one of these guys take downs ablone are quite painful.

Poeple think I talk smack about them, but I don’t, I respect the damage they can do. If you want to follow thorugh, you’ll have to make additional rules, for safety, but they will limit the groudn fighter and not be a good representation in my eyes.

One thing to think about with grapplers: if they can grab you, feel lucky, because they could have hit you but didn;t, they chose to grab you instead. Don;t be so nice. If they are close enough to grab, you are close enough to strike. Who can afford one good one to the chin from point blank, focused?

Magic markers and long-sleeved white T’s are fun for knife simulation, thought I have never truly been trained in their defense.

17

Sparring is a relationship which evolves naturally as the people involved develop a more sophisticated dynamic. The evolution of peoples’ sparring has an intangible element that’s based on intent more than method. Tactical intent begins to supercede technical application as the dynamic becomes more intimate. Push-hands, chi-sau, rolling, randori, armoured, street-clothed, are just variations of defining the relationship. Some are cooperative and some not.

If I spar with a long-time training partner, the relationship is different than if I spar with someone who I’ve never met before…and the intent will be very different regardless of the format. Ergo, the format reflects the familiarity and mutual understanding of what is being accomplished in the exercise. eg…The format is a street-fight scenario where we agree to “duel” rather than a format reflecting a random violent attack..if I throw a punch at my partner’s thigh, the unfamiliar guy will be like “WTF???” but with long-time partner, it might be understood that I just pulled a kife and attempted a cut. If I make contact, the unfamiliar guy will have a pause that allows me to control his flow-state as well as the direction that the sparring takes, but with the familiar guy, I can expect him to take the intiative with a sense of urgency toward controlling the hand I just hit him with,…or he can run like the wind away from the danger. The difference is that one sparring session has a cooperative quality which is absent in the other.

Sparring reflects the intelligence of the participants and the IDEAS they’ve embraced mutually as a means to practicing particular skill-sets contained within the format. Skill-sets and etiquette dictate the format, but the corner-stone is the relationship.

Push-hands isn’t any different than other cooperative skills we practice everyday within the dynamic of any given relationship. eg…I worked for a moving company for a few years when I was younger, and there were times when I was working with a rookie where we had to carry heavy appliances or large pieces of furniture up and down stairs, across an icy driveway, etc, and it was marginally dangerous. When I worked with a seasoned mover however, we could carry the heaviest $#!+ with much less effort. The main thing in regard to push-hands is that with a seasoned guy, we each had the same sense of balance and equilibrium. If we were carrying a big, heavy freezer, I could apply 4 ounces in a certain direction and send him flying..all the force I needed was between us rather than within either one of us. :wink:

I once read in the Yang family secret transmissions that push-hands should contain the same ideas that are applied to operating a 2-man saw. Not too much force or too little, lest the saw bind in the wood. Both people must have a sense of this equilibrium before wood can be cut efficiently. “I am not a meathook!!!” :cool:

apoweyn sorry to hijak your thread, just thoughts that popped up as I read your initial post.

18

evolutionfist,

granted, in reality, a takedown would hurt like a mutha. but personally, i’d rather train to continue from there. if, in reality, i’m too hurt to do so, then that’s that. seeya in hell. but if i’m not too hurt, i’d hate to then be stumped on what to do next. “boy, that wasn’t so bad. good thing i landed on this pile of leaves. now what to do about this choke he’s applying.”

see what i’m saying? i’d rather train for the full progression. if, in reality, some part of that progression takes me out, then it takes me out. but if it doesn’t, i don’t want to take myself out because i’m not sure what comes next in the flow.

as for the knife sparring, yeah the marker thing is pretty ‘enlightening.’ knife sparring in general is a pretty unpleasant eye opener. you don’t really need the marker, except to make the point that much more clearly. in practice, with two cooperative partners, i think one should be able to acknowledge that a rubber blade in the ribs spells bad news.

we can’t recreate reality in sparring. if we could, sparring would presumably become as dangerous (and therefore as undesirable) as being attacked in the first place. what i’m talking about is approximations that make the logical leap to reality a bit smaller.

stuart b.

19

shooter,

that was no hijacking. that was a beautiful addition to the thread. originally, i was thinking fairly specifically. but if this expands into a larger examination of sparring, then for goodness’ sake, fire away.

what i’ve been thinking about is how often we start with a format and then train our style ‘into’ that format rather than the other way around. we (or at least i) don’t tend to visualize what we want to be capable of and then organize a sparring format around that.

you’ve introduced some other factors. very interesting stuff. cheers.

stuart b.

20

In regards the face mask issue. It seems like if you wear one then you get this false sense of security about getting hit in the face. It hurts like hell and it can quickly end a fight. So shouldn’t you learn without one? So that you don’t go into a real confrontation thinking you can easily withstand headshots?

I think that the end goal as far as sparring goes is light/med power to the head, med/full power to the body. Obviously some things are just not allowed groin shots, joint locking, knee attacks. But no gloves, no protection. This of course means that you must have some sort of iron shirt training.