I didn’t say they sucked. Or that I was any better. Just pointed out something I noticed for conversation. No harm no foul. I give them credit for training. I appreciated the clip.
[QUOTE=Edmund;770054]I think it’s actually better to train at the range those guys are training.[/QUOTE]
That’s cool, personally, I do not believe in ‘static range’ training per se.. Because IMO it’s not realistic and doesn’t address the needed skill-set, entering. I do believe in training to enter <control> and finish–whatever the level of contact.. And also IMO without training the entry and staying ‘at range’ may actually inhibit folks from developing the proper response of entering when the schit hits the fan because under stress science shows us that the primal brain regurgitates what it has trained…
That clip wasn’t bad, as far as it goes. That type of sparring is a great way to train your foot work, distancing, timing, etc. when you don’t feel like taking it too each other too hard.
The glaring problem I see is that there are no power shots. There was not one strike in those sessions that would have resulted in significant damage. Even if there is not full contact, leaving out power shots is your sparring is just teaching you to hit only with the non-damaging set-up shots.
There is a reason that boxers always include crosses, hooks and uppercuts, even when they are going light. These are the blows that cause the most damage and are most likely to be fight finishers. Leaving these types of strikes out develops an unrealistic expectation of what fighting will be like.
The thing about sparring is that, if you don’t put enough power in your strikes to at least get a reaction from your partner, everything will be out of context.
Combos will be artificial and will not play out the same as they do with real power being present.
Timing will be different, endurance, footwork, head work , etc.
You don’t have to go “damage hard”, but at least hard enough to make him/her react in the correct way.
[QUOTE=Edmund;770046]Err, because you are putting them down. You directly criticised these guys.
Obviously you think you are better then them so you should back it up.
If you think you can’t show them up, then don’t throw stones from the glasshouse.[/QUOTE]
Where does this notion come from that when someone puts up some clip of themselves on the net that they should be immune from criticism? If they don’t want criticism, then don’t put up clips.
You don’t need to be “better” than they are to see that’s not sparring; it’s some sort of playfighting. I also don’t know where you got th notion that I am claimiong to be better than they are – I’ve never claimed to be" better than them" - or anyone for that matter. I said “where is the sparring?” and that in sparring people really try to hit one another. If you disagree, then disagree and explain why you beleive in sparring people don’t need to really try to hit one another.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;770149]The thing about sparring is that, if you don’t put enough power in your strikes to at least get a reaction from your partner, everything will be out of context.
[/QUOTE]
This is exactly right. Without enough power (really trying to hit your opponent), it changes the game and you’re doing something other than (practice) fighting. For one example, the one guy kept kicking his opponent’s lead leg, over and over almost in slo mo, and his opponent did nothing to deal with it (because it didn’t hurt). One really good hard shot, and I can promise you that he would begin to deal with it, changing how he moved, how he stands, how he reacts, etc. which would require the “kicker” to change what he was doing. The game would change.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;770177]One really good hard shot, and I can promise you that he would begin to deal with it, changing how he moved, how he stands, how he reacts, etc. which would require the “kicker” to change what he was doing. The game would change.[/QUOTE]
OMG… I agree with Terrence.. :eek:
And in order to make that kind of contact with strikes, with or without WCK you will also need to close into ‘kill range’ which is closer than ‘touch me kill me’ range..
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;770177]This is exactly right. Without enough power (really trying to hit your opponent), it changes the game and you’re doing something other than (practice) fighting. For one example, the one guy kept kicking his opponent’s lead leg, over and over almost in slo mo, and his opponent did nothing to deal with it (because it didn’t hurt). One really good hard shot, and I can promise you that he would begin to deal with it, changing how he moved, how he stands, how he reacts, etc. which would require the “kicker” to change what he was doing. The game would change.[/QUOTE]
Of course, if we are going to take that that tact, we have to admit that BJJ training is just as guilty when we roll without striking. Striking changes BJJ significantly in terms of the pace, the reactions, and the techniques. Think of all the 1/2 guard sweeps, inverted guard positions, etc that are done when strikes aren’t involved that are never attempted when one is allowed to strike.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;770179]Of course, if we are going to take that that tact, we have to admit that BJJ training is just as guilty when we roll without striking. Striking changes BJJ significantly in terms of the pace, the reactions, and the techniques. Think of all the 1/2 guard sweeps, inverted guard positions, etc that are done when strikes aren’t involved that are never attempted when one is allowed to strike.[/QUOTE]
Context is everything, most of what you mention is applicable to SPORT BJJ, which has no striking.
I don’t know of any BJJ instructors that, when teaching BJJ in the context of VT/MMA DON’T change what they teach.
The GNP as it is now has made working from the guard and such totally different than it was even 5 years ago, much less 10.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;770182]Context is everything, most of what you mention is applicable to SPORT BJJ, which has no striking.
I don’t know of any BJJ instructors that, when teaching BJJ in the context of VT/MMA DON’T change what they teach..[/QUOTE]
Many BJJ programs that focus on striking still don’t strike full contact on the ground. They only do slaps, which is just as bad as sparring standing with only light contact.
The GNP as it is now has made working from the guard and such totally different than it was even 5 years ago, much less 10.
Part of that is the rules and part of it is that the top G&P game has evolved more than the guard has evolved to deal with it. That may or may not change in the future. Bravo’s rubber guard is an interesting closed guard take on dealing with G&P and you may see some interesting open guard variations popping up soon also.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;770179]Of course, if we are going to take that that tact, we have to admit that BJJ training is just as guilty when we roll without striking. Striking changes BJJ significantly in terms of the pace, the reactions, and the techniques. Think of all the 1/2 guard sweeps, inverted guard positions, etc that are done when strikes aren’t involved that are never attempted when one is allowed to strike.[/QUOTE]
That’s very true – but I think what is going on in BJJ is that the focus is on developing grappling skills, which is achieved by eliminating stiking. So, for example, while I can punch my way out of the closed guard (which is a viable thing to do in fighting), doing so will inhibit development of my grappling abilities – developing a feel for leverage, control, weight transfer, etc.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;770191]That’s very true – but I think what is going on in BJJ is that the focus is on developing grappling skills, which is achieved by eliminating stiking. So, for example, while I can punch my way out of the closed guard (which is a viable thing to do in fighting), doing so will inhibit development of my grappling abilities – developing a feel for leverage, control, weight transfer, etc.[/QUOTE]
Which has both pros and cons…like everything else.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;770192]Which has both pros and cons…like everything else.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. 
Sparring is a form of training common to many martial arts. Although the precise form varies, it is relatively free-form fighting, with enough rules, customs, or agreements to make injuries unlikely. By extension, argumentative debate is sometimes called “verbal sparring”.
The physical nature of sparring naturally varies with the nature of the skills it is intended to develop; sparring in a striking art such as Savate will normally begin with the players at opposite corners of a ring and will be stopped if they clinch. Sparring in a grappling art such as judo might begin with the partners holding one another and end if they separate.
The organization of sparring matches also varies. If the participants know each other well and are friendly, it may be sufficient for them to simply play, without rules, referee, or timer. If the sparring is between strangers, or there is some emotional tension, or the sparring is being evaluated, it may be appropriate to introduce formal rules and have an experienced martial artist supervise the match.
Sparring is normally distinct from fights in competition. The goal of sparring is normally the education of the participants, while a competitive fight seeks to determine a winner.
The educational role of sparring is a matter of some debate. In any sparring match, precautions of some sort must be taken to protect the participants. These may include wearing protective gear, declaring certain techniques and targets off-limits, playing slowly or at a fixed speed, forbidding certain kinds of trickery, or one of many other possibilities. These precautions have the potential to change the nature of the skill that is being learned. For example, if one were to always spar with heavily padded gloves, one might come to rely on techniques that risk breaking bones in one’s hand. Most schools recognize this problem but value sparring nonetheless because it forces the student to improvise, to think under pressure, and to keep their emotions under control.
A simpler way to look at it is that sparring is practice using your martial art, whatever it is, in a fighting environment. Because the only way to learn and develop skill using your martial art in a fighting (realistic) environment is by practicing in one. So, no fighting environment, no sparring. In stand up: not really trying to hit one another = not a fighting environment = not sparring.
[QUOTE=Big Vern;770195]Sparring is a form of training common to many martial arts. Although the precise form varies, it is relatively free-form fighting, with enough rules, customs, or agreements to make injuries unlikely. By extension, argumentative debate is sometimes called “verbal sparring”.
The physical nature of sparring naturally varies with the nature of the skills it is intended to develop; sparring in a striking art such as Savate will normally begin with the players at opposite corners of a ring and will be stopped if they clinch. Sparring in a grappling art such as judo might begin with the partners holding one another and end if they separate.
The organization of sparring matches also varies. If the participants know each other well and are friendly, it may be sufficient for them to simply play, without rules, referee, or timer. If the sparring is between strangers, or there is some emotional tension, or the sparring is being evaluated, it may be appropriate to introduce formal rules and have an experienced martial artist supervise the match.
Sparring is normally distinct from fights in competition. The goal of sparring is normally the education of the participants, while a competitive fight seeks to determine a winner.
The educational role of sparring is a matter of some debate. In any sparring match, precautions of some sort must be taken to protect the participants. These may include wearing protective gear, declaring certain techniques and targets off-limits, playing slowly or at a fixed speed, forbidding certain kinds of trickery, or one of many other possibilities. These precautions have the potential to change the nature of the skill that is being learned. For example, if one were to always spar with heavily padded gloves, one might come to rely on techniques that risk breaking bones in one’s hand. Most schools recognize this problem but value sparring nonetheless because it forces the student to improvise, to think under pressure, and to keep their emotions under control.[/QUOTE]
great for beginners and then?
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;770174]Where does this notion come from that when someone puts up some clip of themselves on the net that they should be immune from criticism? If they don’t want criticism, then don’t put up clips.
[/QUOTE]
There’s a difference between making a criticism and making a disparaging remark.
You obviously think you are better than them if you disparage their clip by saying “Where is the sparring?”.
You don’t need to be “better” than they are to see that’s not sparring; it’s some sort of playfighting. I also don’t know where you got th notion that I am claimiong to be better than they are – I’ve never claimed to be" better than them" - or anyone for that matter. I said “where is the sparring?” and that in sparring people really try to hit one another. If you disagree, then disagree and explain why you beleive in sparring people don’t need to really try to hit one another.
They connected.
Your clip had guys with 16oz gloves and headgear.
If you go too hard without gear you run the risk of injury. If you KO your sparring partner, then you can’t train with them.
Guys who spar every day use more control and less contact. You hit hard with pad holders.
Watch how the real guys do it at around the 3:00 mark:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=UUtm-DLJzgo&mode=related&search=
Compare that to how they work with pad holders.
They are pro fighters. The good ones that you said do it the proper way.
[QUOTE=Edmund;770295]
Guys who spar every day use more control and less contact. You hit hard with pad holders.
Watch how the real guys do it at around the 3:00 mark:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=UUtm-DLJzgo&mode=related&search=
Compare that to how they work with pad holders.[/QUOTE]
It’s not the fact that they spar every day that is the reason for them to go lighter, but the fact that they compete every couple of weeks.
Going light with each other allows them to recover from their competitions.
Going heavy on the pads allows them to go heavy without sustaining injuries between competitions.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;770298]It’s not the fact that they spar every day that is the reason for them to go lighter, but the fact that they compete every couple of weeks.
Going light with each other allows them to recover from their competitions.
Going heavy on the pads allows them to go heavy without sustaining injuries between competitions.[/QUOTE]
The champs don’t fight quite so often a lot of the times. Every couple of months maybe. They have the bigger matches where a lot more is on the line.
They’re still human. They don’t recover from comp injuries in a week.
And they know that injuring yourself while PRACTICING how to fight is a bad idea.
Feel free to deck each other in sparring though. You learn so much when either you or your sparring partner are sidelined for the rest of a training session because of a KO.
There is no fighter alive, elite MMAer or otherwise, that can afford getting concussed more than he or she absolutely has to.
You can’t toughen the brain. Muhammad Ali was one of the greatest of modern times, but he’s living proof.
My instructor’s father died as a result of concussion from an attempted mugging just outside his hotel. He got up, dusted himself off, went into the hotel, went to bed and never woke up.
If you’re getting continually KO’ed, you are a moron or will very soon become one as your brain cells get killed off.
Cracked ribs don’t exactly make for a productive training experience either.
Criticising the guys in the vid because they aren’t trying to take each other’s heads off is like watching a clip of two BJJers going light or practising their mobile games and then criticising them for not engaging properly. You’re looking at one aspect of thier practice and assuming it is all like that.