Terrence- IME, my best work on timing comes not from totally free sparring but light limitation sparring designed for work on timing. I know good competetive fighters who train this way, and have felt the best results in free sparring when I’ve done light work mostly for timing first.
**Good stuff. The isolation/limitation permits you to focus more on that aspect, then you put it into your game.
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Yes the drill sounds good to me also, but Terence I’m surprised by your response. Andrew is advocating light sparring and you are agreeing? What use is light sparring in your eyes, that’s not real fighting, no one’s going to lightly rob or mug you are they? Your funny sometimes, I’ve advocated drills similar to AndrewS in the past and you chop it down quick with some sort of silly comment like you always use, them someone else comes around to say something similar with different words and your on their band wagon. You said earlier that timing is learned from fighting and only fighting, so is light sparring fighting? According to you the word sparring is non-existent in MA terminology, never mind when it is light, so it seems you are contradicting yourself, again…but of course you will have a rhetorical answer for this too, you are a lawyer.
Even if you advocate exactly what Terrence has said in a past post then he will try to cut it down or so it seems.
It seemed like a flip flop to me also. Before Terrence always advocates 100% knock your partner’s head off or else it isn’t real fighting practice. If anyone suggested to go less than 100% then he would say it’s totally useless. Real men are tough and don’t do that pattycake practice designed for Whimps.
There are no clips of him doing the 100% anywhere so likely those are just words that sound good. For an average martial arts school with students from a variety of backgrounds, sizes, weights, medical conditions etc. you just can’t do what he is advocating. But he doesn’t run a martial arts school, is not liable for your students and only trains with a hand picked selected few people so his experience teaching is limited by the sounds of it.
With a hand selected set of very fit training partners who know what they are doing then Terrences suggestions are great, maximum intensity bashing. But what he showed in two clips as something good isn’t my idea of quality either. It’s something your average spunky student in any club can do in a few months or before they even start a martial art.
For the past few thousand years fighting training hasn’t really changed much I imagine, you learn some movements or ideas, then spar with different intensities according to the partners in action and after that it’s real fighting. Sparring is sparring or play fighting and fighting is fighting where you aim to injure your opponent.
We do all kinds of sparring-type drills, from isolation stuff to lighter stuff, too. And we do forms, and drills like lop sao and chi sao. FWIW, I typically find Andrew’s posts, along with a few other posters, generally insightful and useful (and we don’t always agree). That’s because I know he’s genuinely training WCK – and we’ve never met (nor are we of the same lineage). I can tell by the things he says that he “gets it.” Just as I can tell by what many others say that they just don’t “get it.” If someone is really mixing it up as part of their training, as opposed to those that “spar” a bit with the laddies, they will have a certain perspective on things. Theoreticians/nonfighters have a different but easily recognizable perspective.
For us many of the students came from fighting backgrounds such as bouncers, police, or from other arts like KyokoShin karate, competitive Judo etc. Some students have competed in tournaments but for the most part it’s street combat results that I hear about. Whatever we train seems to work for that.
If you put Ken Chung in with those guys from those clips, he’d “look” just like that too – because that’s what fighting looks like, that’s what it is going to be like, that is what you have to learn to deal with. Cheung-Boztepe wasn’t some aberration; that’s what fights look like. You can either face the reality and begin to learn to deal with it or keep your head in the sand and keep playing “pretend fighting”. It’s easy to “look good” in chi sao or demos but fighting is going to be nothing like chi sao or demos. And that’s why most of what WCK people are demonstrating on their websites make the MMAists howl with laughter (they post links of them on the MMA sites from time to time for chuckles) – they know what fights are like and can tell that those “techniques” WCK people so proudly display are worthless in that sort of environment.
Oh, yeah, I almost forgot – I just love when I hear theoreticians talk about multiple-attackers when they aren’t even training to fight one person! If you can’t beat one guy, what makes you think you can beat two or three? LOL! Or is it the case of “I can’t make it work in the gym, but it will in the street”?
To me Phil’s clips, Ali’s clips, James clips, Ernie’s clips are all OK and show normal training. That’s not much different from what anyone does including us. From that kind of practice our students go to fighting for real or tournaments. That’s our experience. As for multiple opponent stuff it’s something worth trying and not something to be afraid of and criticize. Try it, you will like it. It’s not a drill, just fight you might learn something in the process. And don’t have the attackers come one at a time either. Some of our members cross train in Judo, Thai boxing, submission wrestling and stick fighting. I think it is not necessary but that’s what they like to do. Ladies shouldn’t be looked down upon as some are very good martial artists. I guess you don’t train any but some of the members on this forum probably have some ladies who are pretty good.
I doubt Emin would look like those people you admire in your clips. I don’t know how Ken would look but I have seen Emin move and I have also seen other good martial artists fight. Thai boxers and western boxers have much more skill than those guys display. I would rather use those people as models than what you advocate as model fighting.
Terrence why not display in some clips what you advocate as good fighting by yourself or your students. Then we will all have a good understanding about real fighting and how it differs from what everyine else does.
If you have the “eye” – which comes from fighting – you’ll see vast differences in just those clips you mentioned.
If you want to do multiple attacker drills, that’s fine. Maybe you can go onto the boxing forum and explain to them how that would help them develop greater boxing skills if they had two or more opponent’s in the ring. Or the BJJ forum and explain why they should roll with multiple opponents. Or the thai boxing forum . . . . Well, the aikido, tai ji, and other TCMA forums might buy it.
And why do you mention looking down at the ladies? I said “laddies” – young lads (men), classmates.
And if you put Emin in with those guys, he’d look like that too. Anyone will.
Sorry, but there are no tapes of me. If you ever want to see me in person, you’re always welcome. But you should keep in mind, that the validity of my points doesn’t rely on my skills; they are true whether I’m a monster or a scrub.
Originally posted by t_niehoff
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If you want to do multiple attacker drills, that’s fine. Maybe you can go onto the boxing forum and explain to them how that would help them develop greater boxing skills if they had two or more opponent’s in the ring. Or the BJJ forum and explain why they should roll with multiple opponents. Or the thai boxing forum . . . . Well, the aikido, tai ji, and other TCMA forums might buy it.
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Actually I don’t like doing that. Boxing and Thai boxing and BJJ are designed for one one one fighting as is Wing Chun. If those guys like to try to fight againts a gang of youths instead of in the sporting ring then they may add some supplemental training to their otherwise excellent training too.
I don’t speak the Scottish language so I slipped up on the ladies thing. Just making sure your not cutting down the innocent.
The first Wing Chun fighter I met demoed against random attack
four or five guys against him in continuous fighting. His job in Hong Kong was to fight since he was a gang enforcer. How that fighting looks is very much different than what you showed in your clips. There is much less wasted movement, much more power, better body mechanics, better relaxation, better explosiveness and the fights don’t involve throwing out hundreds of ineffective hits. Real fights don’t last too long. I have met one other real Wing Chun fighter who also had the same kind of job but in Vancouver. These people are hardcore and fight very well. The look is like a good boxer, they move in and do the job. No bouncing around flailing away.
That’s great – demos are fun. They are not realistic, but they are fun. The trouble is that people mistake them for being realistic (some of those aikido guys think they’ll really be able to throw multiple attackers around too!). No one is going to be able to genuinely fight, and defeat, competant multiple opponents. You saw those clips – do you think you could put an extra person or two on one side and have the alone fighter win? Please. Sure your demo guy looked good in a demo. Put him in with those guys from the clips and it would be very different. You don’t need to take my word for it – try it for yourself. This is the problem with demos and drills: they don’t reflect the reality of a fighting environment.
The argument that “well, it works in the street” is really a poor defense. What you’re really saying is “while we can’t make it work against skilled fighters, we’ve found that if they suck (are untrained, unskilled, and out of condition), then it seems to work fine.” You may be happy with that – but I’m not.
Maybe you can go onto the boxing forum and explain to them how that would help them develop greater boxing skills if they had two or more opponent’s in the ring. Or the BJJ forum and explain why they should roll with multiple opponents. Or the thai boxing forum . . . .
And that’s why most of what WCK people are demonstrating on their websites make the MMAists howl with laughter (they post links of them on the MMA sites from time to time for chuckles)
Do we really have to care about what these guys think?..IMO,people who care too much about this should simply become boxers,BJJists or whatever and live happily, howling with the guys.
Thai boxers and western boxers have much more skill than those guys display. I would rather use those people as models than what you advocate as model fighting.
Originally posted by t_niehoff
[B]That’s great – demos are fun.
You saw those clips – do you think you could put an extra person or two on one side and have the alone fighter win? Please. Sure your demo guy looked good in a demo. Put him in with those guys from the clips and it would be very different. You don’t need to take my word for it – try it for yourself.
The argument that “well, it works in the street” is really a poor defense. What you’re really saying is “while we can’t make it work against skilled fighters, we’ve found that if they suck (are untrained, unskilled, and out of condition), then it seems to work fine.” You may be happy with that – but I’m not. [/B]
My example wasn’t a nice demo. This guy made his living from fighting, he was a professional. He fights for a living not talks for a living. He was asked if he could handle multiple opponents, so he said OK let’s get it on, let’s go and try. No planning, no drills, just do it.
The attacks you hear about are not a dozen professional Thai boxers or a dozen professional BJJ artists picking on one guy. That would be impossible. However handling 6 or seven teenage punks is no easy feat either. That’s more like what you are training for.
Those guys in the clips are not competent fighters and tha’s when one competent fighter could take them out. Take any well known MMA and he could certainly take out the people in your examples who you think are so good. I can guarantee that. Some people around here can fight and have done the same. No drills fighting.
The people I am talking about are skilled fighters not the same as your hand picked sparring buddies who think they are doing real fighting but have never tried it.
No use to bring up Aikido since no one is pushing that art here. However I do know a few good Aikido fighters. If you are a real fighter then you can usually make any art work.
Originally posted by old jong
[B]Do we really have to care about what these guys think?..IMO,people who care too much about this should simply become boxers,BJJists or whatever and live happily, howling with the guys.
Exactly!..My “eye” is telling me this the same. [/B]
Yes, I think so too. Who cares what these people think? I have seen Wing Chun people who fight for a living and some of the students here did it as part of their job in bouncing or police work for years. They tell me what works and what doesn’t. They fight. Some Wing Chun people fight for a living and that’s why they learned their art in the first place.
If one is talking about professional fighting then that’s another thing. No one on this forum has gone to Thailand and won any championships as far as I know.
There is no use to demand good posture, good structure, efficiency if the real fight is flailing away and it takes 100 hits to take a guy out. The best model is the Western boxer if you want a skilled model and not those people in Terrences clips. I don’t think Ernie and Phil or Emin or Ken will look like those guys and especially the MMA who are good wouldn’t look like that if fighting people of that calibre. When two equal opponents fight, then it looks more messy although in Judo competitions there are a few very talented types who can still make their art look good and different from a school yard brawl.
I think the professional MMA would also think Terrences clips look like a joke.
Originally posted by YongChun The first Wing Chun fighter I met demoed against random attack
four or five guys against him in continuous fighting. His job in Hong Kong was to fight since he was a gang enforcer. How that fighting looks is very much different than what you showed in your clips.
Real fights usuually don’t look much like demos, even between skilled fighters. Non-fighting theoreticians think they do, though.
Originally posted by sihing Andrew is advocating light sparring and you are agreeing? What use is light sparring in your eyes, that’s not real fighting, no one’s going to lightly rob or mug you are they?
Light sparring has its place. You can’t always spar at 100% (this is one of the advantages of the grappling arts…you can spar at 100% more often than with striking arts). The point is that if you never go past light sparring, you will not develop much “real world” skill application.
Originally posted by YongChun if you want a skilled model and not those people in Terrences clips. I don’t think Ernie and Phil or Emin or Ken will look like those guys and especially the MMA who are good wouldn’t look like that if fighting people of that calibre.
No they wouldn’t look like the people in those clips. That is because none of them would be trying to use straight WC when fighting.
Originally posted by YongChun When two equal opponents fight, then it looks more messy although in Judo competitions there are a few very talented types who can still make their art look good and different from a school yard brawl.
That’s because a judo competition is not a fight.
Originally posted by YongChun I think the professional MMA would also think Terrences clips look like a joke.
That is because they are attempting to use only WC in their fights and don’t have much in the way of ground skills.
Originally posted by YongChun There is a difference between a 250 pound guy and a 90 pound woman. You don’t hit the latter in the same way or your looking at a major lawsuit. we have size differences like that: 250 pound muscular guys and ladies who weigh less than 90 pounds.
God help her if a 250 lb. guy ever does attack her. While a small woman can’t take hard hits from a larger man as often as a smaller man could, it behooves her to mix it up hard with them occasionally if she wants to be prepared for the hard reality of what could happen (another advantage of the grappling arts is that womem regularly roll hard against the guys).
I prefer evaluating the merits of what is written based on what is written rather than who is writing it. It isn’t always easy, and being human I’m not always 100% successful, but I do try.
I have also learned that it’s a wise policy to avoid making too many assumptions about people based on their internet presence, writing style, etc. In my experience, this is more conducive to a) learning, b) building constructive and mutually beneficial relationships, and c) remaining open minded to new or potentially useful information and ideas. It also helps to d) mitigate the risks of error-prone assumptions or faulty conclusions.
In general, this has proven to be a valid approach in my Wing Chun pursuits, as well as in other endeavors.
To the more immediate point, regardless of agreement or disagreement, I am appreciative for the opportunity to entertain all reasonable perspectives relative to Wing Chun. So to all of you concerned, and regardless of your practices, predilections, or stance (sic), I thank you for that.
Originally posted by Knifefighter God help her if a 250 lb. guy ever does attack her.
Well said. I, for one, wouldn’t dream of denying a sincere offer of divine assistance. Nor would I wish to disappoint such a benefactor by failing to make my share of contribution to the task at hand.
Originally posted by Knifefighter Light sparring has its place. You can’t always spar at 100% (this is one of the advantages of the grappling arts…you can spar at 100% more often than with striking arts). The point is that if you never go past light sparring, you will not develop much “real world” skill application.
Yes I agree with you here Dale, 100% intensity all the time in any sport will do more harm than good (Bjorn Borg the famous tennis god from Sweden retired at 26yrs old, prime age in that sport due to burnout from 100% effort over his teenage years). It has to be paced and incorporated with similar methods that will enhance the end effect and for most on here that is fighting effectiveness.
I feel the same about the Grappling arts, and since you have more personal experience with this than I it was nice to hear someone edify that feeling with the sparring thing in the grappling arts, its not as physically abusive as the striking arts are on one’s body.
Terence’s method comes off as a “all out or nothing” approach, it’s either Black or White in his eyes it seems like most of the time.