Some thoughts on the myth of Southern Shaolin - for Eric Ling

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
1

Hi Eric and All,

Sorry not participating much on your thread but you have so much good stuff that it takes time to just go through them one by one. Anyway, I found some of your comments interest regarding the Crane method and Southern Shaolin.

Fang did join the “Heaven & Earth” society accordingly to most accounts and the leader of that group was recorded as a “internal” expert.

I am always under the impression that Fang family originally came from Zhe Jiang, Li Shui area. Zhe Jiang is one of the location where the Ming dynasty military recuiting and training camps would be found. We know that Henan Shaolin monks used to serve amongst the Ming troops. It is possible that Fang family’s Shaolin (Luohan Men) Kung Fu came from there. There is another possibility that Fang family was involved with White Lotus cult which might have militia training using Fanziquan (short strikes protocol), which is also about Luohan. Third year of the reign of Qing Emperor Shun Zhi, there is an edict to ban all cults. This could be the cause of the migration of the Fang family. They could have brided their way out of death role but got exciled instead. The Gazzettes are not very clear on what kind of criminal offence that the family committed but only that they are convicted and move to Chuan Zhou, Fujian. Later they moved to Yong Chun. It is about the time in Chuan Zhou that Fang Qiniang went to so called Jiao Lian Si (a covert White Lotus temple) that is located opposite the Zhen Guo Dong Chan Shaolin Si (built during Tang dynasty 874-879 CE), that is later distoryed in (1672 CE) During the Kang Xi reign. The destruction might have been a measure of Qing empire’s struggle with the Ming loyalist resurgences based in Taiwan. They ordered residents of coast line towns, which inclues Chuan Zhou, to move inland in order to deprive the enemy (Ming loyalists) more resources to work with. It is important to bare in mind that the burning of this “Shaolin temple” is more a casuality of the struggle between the Qing empire and the Ming Loyalists. Not as pop culture has it that the Qing emperor set fire on it because of cruelty. The Qing imperial family didn’t hate Buddhism in fact they embraced it.

As for the further Southern Shaolin myth, I could get into that if there is an interest.

It is believe that Jian Lian Si had martial arts training. This is the reason that later Bai Jie returned from Taiwan and landed in Yong Chun and taught “Cun Jing Jie Li” (ie Ba Fen). Is it possible that Fan Qiniang by chance met the head of Tian Di Hui (Heaven and Earth society) - Baihe Daoren Chen Jinnan (Venerable white crane) during her sojourn; hence, the creation myth of the style was born? Well, it’s quite possible that certain aspect of the story changed considering it’s not “proper” during the time to tell of story meeting or even fighting between a male and a female with sensitive backgrounds such as the two. So the question is did Fan Qiniang created a style out of the blue or did she rather “reformed” her fight training according to Baihe Daoren?

According to my White Crane elders, Fang’s White Crane took on a relatively more “internal” characterictics in Fuzhou; this is really quite apparent if you view most of the later days’ Cranes to come out of Fuzhou.

Well, I personally don’t buy the external internal seperation in Kung Fu. All Kung Fu is both external and internal right from the beginning. If it’s not taught that way, it’s not Kung Fu period.

Yong Chun county’s White Crane is much “harder” even with their emphasis on “nei gung” training and you could see much “tiger” elements embedded. Not strange if you consider the fact that she married her best student who was recorded as an expert in “tiger” boxing.

I believe it’s all relative. But a lot of people like to hold onto the hard/soft thing as a selling point of an art. So… It’s not a question of which is better rather it is which suits you most.

You could also see “Lohan” in many of Yong Chun White Crane techniques; again not strange, she did studied Lohan Boxing with her father.

Well, I think there isn’t a Luohan style per se. I think there is a concept of Luohan. I think there is a lot of “fabricated” facts of a luohan system. I could be wrong but I haven’t seen any ligit Luohan system (not just a form performing school) that has tangible fight theory and training.

In was only in Fuzhou that the “Wu xin” or “5 Elements” concept became incorporated. Where did this “5 elements” come from in the context of White Crane?

Fuzhou crane has also more of a numeric arrangement in the forms right? San Zhan (3 battles), Si Men (4 gates), Ba Bu Lian (8 step lotus), Er Shi Ba Su (28 stars constellations). This might be the remnant of Ming dynasty military training. These and the 5 elements are related toe Yijing and also widely used in the military. Military unites that are closed to the Emperor (ie personal guard) are sometimes considered “internal ranking officiers”. Could this be reminiscent of military training of past dynasty? Well, some food for thoughts there IMHO.

just some thoughts

Warmest regards

Robert

2

Hi Mantis,

I don’t mean to hijack the thread, but did you get my PM by any chance? Thanks.

3

[QUOTE=mantis108;753055]Hi Eric and All,

Well, I personally don’t buy the external internal seperation in Kung Fu. All Kung Fu is both external and internal right from the beginning. If it’s not taught that way, it’s not Kung Fu period.

[/QUOTE]

What is your External what is Internal? please define otherwise we could discuss.

For me, IMHO,

In my understanding, the ancient ancestors has define them as

A, Catagory:

External or Wai Kung as the training of sinews, skin, bone.
Internal or Nei Kung as The training of Essence, Qi, and Shen, and cultivate the Mai.

External kung could be seen explicitly while practice and execute
Internal Kung is subtle while practice and execute.

External kung using the Yee to mamual the physical body direct.
Internal Kung using the Yee to lead the Qi to transport the physical body.

External Kung needs as much coverage as possible on all cases.
Internal Kung is about Dao mimic nature or return to the origin or let go let the nature take its path.

IMHO, until we define these clearly we could discuss. and most dont even know they are doing Wai Kung but keep thinking they are doing internal art which they are not.

B, Training Process:

External Training :
via physical strenght drill so that each part of the body is covered and the muscle all got warm up and drill.

Internal Training :
via fine tune the Mind, Breathing, and Body with the key of Relax, Quiet, and Nature.
or in today’s term the consciousnees needs to get into alter state and the breathing and body needs to be in the state of resonance.

Movements has to be similar to snake slide or the wave washing the shore with ease. Until the Dan Dien heat up, and/or the body naturally resonance, then one has enter the gate of the training. and the journey started.

C, body handling

External :

Tensing to move or manifest force.
via Local muscle
or Full body muscle

Internal:

Yee issuing

Let Go loosen up muscle when issuing Jing or move according to the resonance track of Qi Mai.

4

Greetings Wu-Ji,

[QUOTE=wu-ji;753163]Hi Mantis,

I don’t mean to hijack the thread, but did you get my PM by any chance? Thanks.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for reminding me to check my PM. I will share some thoughts concerning your PM here also. Please feel free to contact me at sifu1@internorth.com as well.

Warm regards

Mantis108

5

Hi Hendrik,

[QUOTE=Hendrik;753308]What is your External what is Internal? please define otherwise we could discuss.[/quote]

I have stated that to me that is no such a thing as External or Internal when it comes to martial arts training. That distinction IMHO is arbitrarily done to market certain arts a certain way. Also this is primarily done for people who have an archetypically binary inclined mind (ie those Neo Confusciusm school educated kind). Life is in no way binary (black or white so to speak). There are many shades of gray in between. To call one art internal and another external is to muddle the water and to make someone sounds intelligent when in fact that person might not even know what the bleep is going on.

For me, IMHO,

In my understanding, the ancient ancestors has define them as

You are entitled to your opinion, my friend. :slight_smile:

A, Catagory:

External or Wai Kung as the training of sinews, skin, bone.
Internal or Nei Kung as The training of Essence, Qi, and Shen, and cultivate the Mai.

To you and many other people, sinews, skin and bones are inanimated matters, therefore you call them external. It is the Essence, Qi and Shen (so called internal elements - energy) that animate these matters. Well, I don’t see sinews, skin, and bones as matters. There are rather sheaths (energy expressions) or another end of the meridian spectrum. It is a unity not 2 seeming unrelated and uncommon components that are slammed together by whatever invisible force (ie G_D).

External kung could be seen explicitly while practice and execute
Internal Kung is subtle while practice and execute.

If this is true, the sickly looking guy will always feel and look sickly and the strong guy will always look and feel strong. Guess what? This is the reason that athleticism is discriminated against in the practice of most Kung Fu unfortunately. The practice of Kung Fu is about change/metamorphsis. The weak will become strong albeit struggling and the strong will become honed and resillient.

External kung using the Yee to mamual the physical body direct.
Internal Kung using the Yee to lead the Qi to transport the physical body.

If you examin your statements here, you will find either the redundancy of Qi or a misunderstanding of the whole external and internal concepts. If I was to punch some one or grab a cup of tea, all I have to do is just to do it. Why bother so much with the darn Qi? It’s just doesn’t make sense. It certainly doesn’t convince me that the tea taste any better if I use Qi to move my hands to grab the cup and then to drink it. To a person with lots of time on hand, tea ceremony is cool and all. But to a thirsty person, it make no freak’n difference, right? Tea is tea. If you are in a life and death situation, minding that Qi might just the thing that’s going to get you kill!

External Kung needs as much coverage as possible on all cases.
Internal Kung is about Dao mimic nature or return to the origin or let go let the nature take its path.

Well, I am not much of a internal kung man but I do remember reading Zhuang Zi that Dao is in the pooh as well. If pooh can be sacret, well then why treat your phiscally body any differently?

IMHO, until we define these clearly we could discuss. and most dont even know they are doing Wai Kung but keep thinking they are doing internal art which they are not.

Surely, going through the motion won’t make a person attain high level of Kung Fu. In fact, we could say that his not doing Kung Fu at all. But it doesn’t mean that he’s doesn’t have “internal” energy. Take a child for example, if a child don’t want (his Yi/intention) you to pick him up, he will become very heavy just by the sheer not wanting and hard for you to pick him up. The child already know Qi and how to use it. It’s natural. We all have it. Kung Fu is simply to recognize and refine this “process” so that it will benefit us at all times that’s all. There’s nothing secret or mysterious about it.

B, Training Process:

External Training :
via physical strenght drill so that each part of the body is covered and the muscle all got warm up and drill.

Well, if the brain (mind) don’t fire the signal, the body won’t move a certain way right? If the wiring of the body is disrupted, the brain signal can’t reach the targeted muscle and we simply can’t move. So mind, albeit not paying full attention, is involve anytime we are in motion.

Internal Training :
via fine tune the Mind, Breathing, and Body with the key of Relax, Quiet, and Nature.
or in today’s term the consciousnees needs to get into alter state and the breathing and body needs to be in the state of resonance.

It’s fine if you prefer that but it sounds over analysize IMHO for no good reason. It’s one thing to said to be mindful at all times and it’s quite another to dish out a whole wack of “internal theory and training” IMHO.

Movements has to be similar to snake slide or the wave washing the shore with ease. Until the Dan Dien heat up, and/or the body naturally resonance, then one has enter the gate of the training. and the journey started.

Now you are going back to the physcial movement (snake silde or wave) to warm up the dan tian. So my question is then is it the mind that warm ups up the dan tian or is the body that warms up the dan tian in this case? Why is snaking or waving more internal than say going straight? That again is arbitrary IMHO. I understand “Shen Qi Gui Yuan” (Kidney Qi returns to origin) is about these snaking or waving motion. As long as there is motion involve you can all something internal or external because they are one and the same. Just my take.

C, body handling

External :

Tensing to move or manifest force.
via Local muscle
or Full body muscle

Internal:

Yee issuing

Let Go loosen up muscle when issuing Jing or move according to the resonance track of Qi Mai.

Well, I think this understanding comes about because of a lack of understanding of the concept of Gang Rou (rigidity and fluidity) and the human anatomy. Anyway, you might want to further study that other than relying solely on what your teachers say. I am not saying that they are wrong or anything like that but I think there might be some misinterpretation somewhere along the line. Just a thought.

I realize you might not like what I said but it’s how I see things and I believe you would rather have my honest opinion on the subject so…

Regards

Mantis108

6

Mantis,

Great comments and Appreciated your sharing !

Say as much as you could and it is repected and appreciated.

As I like or not, if what you said fit what it is then what to not like?
if what you said has nothing to do with what it is then what to not like about?
You see, what it is matter, words are just tool for communcation.

Thanks for sharing.

However, could you please share what is instead of what it is not?
See, similar to buying a car, if we say we are buying a BMW then we all know it is BMW.

However,
if we say, it is not honda, it is not yugo, it is not ford… we dont know what it is right?

So, please share what is your Internal or external is like.

Or if you dont think that is an internal or external then please share in detail how your system is like.

otherwise we dont know what you refer to.

if I may comment a little,
the more I read your comments the more It remind me about Sound.

As it said in the Zen stanza of Tang dynasty.

Frequenly, I wisper the name Siau Yue ( a female name such as Mary or Jane..) but there is nothing urgent.

I just hope Some one recognized the Sound.

or

as it also said,

That Romance while I was young,
Only my love mate will know.

See, there is a different between thinking or theorities compare with get into the state and describe what it is there.

Who knows the sound? the World is getting lonely without those who knows the music.

I love the following song. hahaha

(spoken)
windflowers

windflowers, my father told me not to go near them
he said he feared them always and he told me that they carried him away

windflowers, beautiful windflowers, i couldn’t wait to touch them
to smell them i held them closely and now i cant break away

their sweet boutque disappears like the vapor in the desert
so…take them away son…

windflowers…ancient windflowers their beauty captures every
young dreamer who lingered near them
ancient windflowers i love you

(sung)
windflowers
my father told me not to
go near them
he feared them always
said they carried him away

windflowers
i couldn’t wait to touch them
to smell them
i held them closely
now i cannot break away

their sweet boutque disappears
like the vapor in the desert
make a whining sound

windflowers
their beauty captures every
young dreamer
who lingered near them
ancient windflowers i love you

Best Regards
Hendrik

7

I always feel so insignificant in such well informed company as this, but perhaps I have something I can add.

This issue of internal and external is arbitrary from my point of view, a point of view I share with Mantis. I take it more as a philosophical question.

We humans, with our minds and our bodies struggle to make sense of the vastness of our experience by building relationships and logical constructs.

Likewise we have the duality of the our experiences - sometimes classified as the Animal and the Intellectual.

Letting go of this need to organise and classify is part of the the pursuit of the Way. In being we are. Understanding that we are is different to understanding why we are.

So from that perspective, to my mind, internal and external are the same, simply a reflection of your development in the process, your awareness and your sensitivity to your self.

BUT, how do you teach these skills? Sometimes to guide someone along the path of their own personal development, you have to use methods that will become superceded as soon as they are understood. The great divide is between the physical and intellectual, but even that divide can be crossed if that is who you are.

Cheers

8

Internal/external distinctions are multi-faced. At the religious/philosophical level, it deals with the distinctions between Taoism and Buddhism.

At the practical level, it deals with one major aspect of martial arts: power generation (The other major aspect will be applications).

“External” follows this path: coarse power first, refinement later to improve accuracy.
“Internal” follows this path: refinement in coordinations will cause a harmony in movements that will yield to strong power.

The power generation methods are not necessarily the same, but they follow those principles.

Strong “external” without “internal” refinement will result in strikes that seem strong and fast, but power is still isolated (not whole body).

Strong “internal” without “external” power emission will result in “push” and not strike.
“Internal” masters with strong strikes don’t emit power much differently to “external” masters (external examples).

Just my 2 pennies worth.

9

Hi everybody,

Yes it’s very easy to feel small in this company..

Robert is the kind of CKF scholar who sends chills down my spine…

And to read my name in the same sentence with “myth of Southern Shaolin” is sending even more chills.

Got a plane to catch in a while and I will keep this short but I’ll be back.

But before I go, let me just say that the great divide between believers and non-believers of Shaolin, Northern or Southern, internal and external methodologies will always be there.

Let’s agree to disagree please…

And Robert, when are you going to accept my invitation to come to Kuching this September?

Give me a chance to “chill” you out with some Carlsbergs…:smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

Warmest Regards.

Eric

10

HI Hendrik,

[QUOTE=Hendrik;753403]Mantis,

Great comments and Appreciated your sharing !

Say as much as you could and it is repected and appreciated.

As I like or not, if what you said fit what it is then what to not like?
if what you said has nothing to do with what it is then what to not like about?
You see, what it is matter, words are just tool for communcation.

Thanks for sharing.[/quote]

You are most welcome. I am glad you understand where I am coming from.

However, could you please share what is instead of what it is not?
See, similar to buying a car, if we say we are buying a BMW then we all know it is BMW.

However,
if we say, it is not honda, it is not yugo, it is not ford… we dont know what it is right?

The brand name is not important. So what if you have a BMW or a hummer for that matter, yet we can’t afford to buy the insurance, put gas and/or pay for the maintainence? It causes us non due stresses. On the other hand, if a yugo is affordable within our budget, why not get a yugo. Better yet why not walk? No. 11 bus is great for the environment; therefore, better Karma for us all, no?

So, please share what is your Internal or external is like.

Or if you dont think that is an internal or external then please share in detail how your system is like.

otherwise we dont know what you refer to.

Kung Fu is about the mind-body continuum. We are essentially and fundamentally working on the mind-body continuum at all times. Take the horse stance for example. It is the very first thing that nearly all Kung Fu systems would have the student to practice. Why? It’s not because the Sifu want to torture the student. It’s because the horse stance, when done properly, is to activate the Gull Bladder meridian. As the same time it allows the student to observes the quality of breath Of course this take guidence, effort and time; hence, the term kung fu. Also, the physical benefit is the muscles (relates to the liver) toning. Liver (inner) and Gull bladder(half in and half out) are companions. So you see it’s all related whether people recognize it or not it’s a different issue. The horse stance builds the student form within to without. One becomes strong not just quantitively but also qualititively. The whole mind-body continuum benefits as the whole spectrum got exercised. That in turn effects a change in us and this change is noticable by those around us.

If we understand that the 8 vassals (or extra meridians) and 12 meridians (all organs are connected with these and the organs are houses of our subtle elements such as Qi) are essentially involved at all times as long as we are living, we simply shouldn’t or couldn’t seperate the mind-body continuum into external and internal. People who advocate that simply don’t have any real knowledge on human anatomy from an ancient scientific perspective IMHO.

This IMHO has to be fully understood before we can even move on to talking about the popular 6 harmonies concept; otherwise, we will get the hang ups of internal and external again. I will share further if there is interest about this.

Hi Yum Cha,

Thank you for your kind words and input. Please feel free to comment. :slight_smile:
Warm regards

Mantis108

11

[QUOTE=Eric Ling;753465]Hi everybody,

Yes it’s very easy to feel small in this company..

Robert is the kind of CKF scholar who sends chills down my spine…

And to read my name in the same sentence with “myth of Southern Shaolin” is sending even more chills.[/quote]

Well, I am the one that feel small all the time when I see the magnitude of your work. BTW, thank you for sharing the Northern Mantis in Malaysia. It’s a board member, Mantiscool, school. He’s has been very kind in sharing his material with me also. But I have not see your clip of them before. As for the myth, it’s an alternate perspective that I have come across. One that I find research has been done (or so it seems) and it does IMHO give some credits to the connection of Southern Shaolin and underground society such as Tiandihui.

Got a plane to catch in a while and I will keep this short but I’ll be back.

But before I go, let me just say that the great divide between believers and non-believers of Shaolin, Northern or Southern, internal and external methodologies will always be there.

Let’s agree to disagree please…

look forward to hear more from you. And I will put the southern shaolin myth story up soon as well. So stay tunned, my friend.

And Robert, when are you going to accept my invitation to come to Kuching this September?

Well, I have been trying to secure my cousin who used to work with me up here before to help me out during that time. But she has private business to take care of in HK and it doesn’t look like she can return on time. I am still very interested to come but I really can’t promise you at this point (unless I sort out the human resources problem). :frowning: I will email in due course to give you my decision. Please forgive me for taking this long. I very much appreciate and am grateful of the oppotunity and the honor of the invitation.

Give me a chance to “chill” you out with some Carlsbergs…:smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

Warmest Regards.

Eric

Well, I would love to chill and hang with you anytime, my friend. :smiley:

Sincerely,

Robert

12

Mantis,
I like that, the mind body continum.

Its always nice to read you.

Cheers

13

Hi

[QUOTE=Eric Ling;753465]
But before I go, let me just say that the great divide between believers and non-believers of Shaolin, Northern or Southern, internal and external methodologies will always be there.[/QUOTE]
What do you mean by “divide”? I was a surprised seeing this posted by someone who showcases the wonderful diversity in the martial arts. Of course I could be interpreting this comment wrong. :slight_smile:

14

Kung Fu is about the mind-body continuum. We are essentially and fundamentally working on the mind-body continuum at all times. Take the horse stance for example. It is the very first thing that nearly all Kung Fu systems would have the student to practice. Why? It’s not because the Sifu want to torture the student. It’s because the horse stance, when done properly, is to activate the Gull Bladder meridian. As the same time it allows the student to observes the quality of breath Of course this take guidence, effort and time; hence, the term kung fu. Also, the physical benefit is the muscles (relates to the liver) toning. Liver (inner) and Gull bladder(half in and half out) are companions. So you see it’s all related whether people recognize it or not it’s a different issue. The horse stance builds the student form within to without. One becomes strong not just quantitively but also qualititively. The whole mind-body continuum benefits as the whole spectrum got exercised. That in turn effects a change in us and this change is noticable by those around us.

mind-body continuum is certainly an excellent one!

however, there are more layers to travel into, it is just a beginning. IMHHHO.

however, the rest of the description remind me about
typical case of having great idea but no technology to attain type of case.

and also
it is a case
in Chinese mandarin which is also called “To Fa lien Kang” or using the village way trying to purify steel. It cant be done effective or properly.

Take a poll, how many standing in horse stand and could attain advance kung fu? and how come Horse Stand standing is no longer practice much these days?

Gull Bladder meridian if is not activate, the person would not be able to stand or even sit. So, I dont buy it about the activation idea.

IMHO,

may be I am wrong, however, until one could clearly describe out what is the activation of the Gull Bladder meridian, how to do it and how do one know it is active. and what is “when done properly”. Then, it is wishfull thinking.

if one intend to strengthening the flow of Gull Bladder medirian, doing bending kiss the feet legs streching (people with high blood pressure dont do this kiss streching ) or front push kick (gradually from low to mid to high and mid and back to low ) and exhale (people with high blood pressure can do this one, yes, exhale when kick, the qi in the gull bladder medirian travel from head down to feet.)

these will be an excellent technics compare with of standing in horse stance which is often block out even more because one doesnt know the key of how to place one’s weight.

and if one is not telling other how one place one’s weight, explicitly one will not be able to tell much. that is internal training. see, even in chinese character, the cultivating of Qi or cultivation of body are different word.

[B]If we understand that the 8 vassals (or extra meridians) and 12 meridians (all organs are connected with these and the organs are houses of our subtle elements such as Qi) are essentially involved at all times as long as we are living, we simply shouldn’t or couldn’t seperate the mind-body continuum into external and internal.

People who advocate that simply don’t have any real knowledge on human anatomy from an ancient scientific perspective IMHO. [/B]

IMHO

Could it possible or slight chance that you might be having a different type of training and experience compare with those who could get into the state and know what is the internal art the chinese ancestor is refer to?

IMHO, from you post, it seems that you dont describe the different characteristics of using Thinking and Awareness and that is a signature which I am looking for but it is not there.

furthermore, aslo, the signature of before speaking about medirians, one MUST restore the diaphram ability to a degree via breath work. Yup, this has to be train seperately…

Those I dont find in your post.

but as usual,
I am sure could be the one who dont know what I am talking about. That is a big possibility.


This IMHO has to be fully understood before we can even move on to talking about the popular 6 harmonies concept; otherwise, we will get the hang ups of internal and external again. I will share further if there is interest about this.

IMHO,
6 harmonies concept is excellent.

However, if we dont Know what is the different between thinking and Knowing. or in today’s term, get into Alfa wave at will, then how good is the understanding via mind speculation which is a different domain compare with Knowing.

Thus, I have heard.
if one’s dont know how to switch off the thinking and using Awareness, and keep mind quite while the Yee is on focus for more then 5 mins, The Yee lead Qi, Qi transport the body will not surface. Thus, one will not be able to describ and appreciate about the internal training. because one simple dont know what is it.

ask the question, could one’s cultivation in kung fu is done when Fa Kung (activate the Kung) is such as without thinking, one let go and one enter into the alter state which perform well without thinking or using the mind to manage— this has to do this and that has to do that? if not then one dont have it. and one’s traning will not work right in the time of application because the mind doesnt response well with a mind that is full of processing. as in one could not enter into Alfa wave state with all type of busy beta wave. Yes, one could hook one up with eeg machine and monitor this. Thus I have heard.

Just some opinion, and as usual, I could be totally wrong. however if I am right, then one could use modern equipment to detect and lead one into entering the internal training in a better clarity way.

I am sorry if I talk straight with little diplomatic and get you or others mad.

for life is short, some couldnt even activate thier ren and du vessals for a life time of training disregard of talk theory about Traditional chinese medicine or mind speculation. That is sad because with proper technology one could activate and enter into the gate of internal training within 3 weeks not 30 years. This jewel part of Chinese ancient teaching needs to be preserved and grow. But one needs to be able to enter into the state at will before anything.

similar to one who has visited NYC they know how NYC is like and there is no reason why NYC is like that and one cant reason why NYC is like that. it is about Know NYC and not logical thinking about How NYC suppose to be like according to oneself.

So, whoever has been in NYC actually could scan, read, and Know who have being there in a conversation because there are signatures could be traced. That is the beauty of Chinese internal art.

One who is in NYC could describ the details of how NYC is and there need not be logic. One who always need to logically speculate or thinking with mind about NYC without being there will not be able to do that.

IMHO, it is not about philosophical. it is a real deal of could one enter into the state or Chin Cie in madarin. Could one do it?

Again, what I am posting is about NeiGong and Waigong, not about Neijia and Waijia. Those are different subject.

Yes, Neigong exist and one needs a sifu to lead one into. reading book doesnt help much.

Peace

15

Hi everybody,

Xia, there is nothing to interpret really; I’m saying it the way it is.

These past years I have met up with many CKF veterans from many different sects and frankly this “divide” is pretty prominent.

I know what I know through the teachings of my teachers and my own investigations and again I got to say that it’s not all black and white.

So, as much as I don’t like “divides”, I just got to accept that it’s there.

Maybe this is what Bruce Lee meant when he said “classical mess”?

Personally, I love to hear different views from different folks.

Or like they say in Zen, it takes all sorts of trees to make a forest.

Hmmm, maybe that’s why ancient Masters refer to CKF as “Martial Forest”….

Warmest Regards.

Eric

16

Hi Hendrik,

mind-body continuum is certainly an excellent one!

however, there are more layers to travel into, it is just a beginning. IMHHHO.

Thanks and of course there are more layers.

however, the rest of the description remind me about
typical case of having great idea but no technology to attain type of case.

and also
it is a case
in Chinese mandarin which is also called “To Fa lien Kang” or using the village way trying to purify steel. It cant be done effective or properly.

Take a poll, how many standing in horse stand and could attain advance kung fu? and how come Horse Stand standing is no longer practice much these days?

Hendrik, neither I or anybody else can be responsible for the trend that is happening in teaching MA. Ever since the advent of JKD, the gate has been swung wild open. There are countless “new methodologies” and “new theories” almost everyday! Every aspiring Kung Fu master have something new, something exciting for general consumption. If they have no faith in traditional knowledge, what can I say. I can only do what I can and do what I know best. I have heard from mystics as well as talked to my mentor in sufism who explain that really there need not be any more new methodologies and such. Even my favor authors such as Karen Armstrong seems to suggest that since the Axial Age (c. 800 to 200 BCE) there isn’t really anything new in the spiritual disciplines. Most everything are recycled stuff these days. BTW I am a fan of Krishnamuytti (sp?). Superstitions can come in many forms incoming obsession with science and technology. :wink: While western science and technology are great, it is also looking outwards instead of looking inwards for the meaning of life. This search while is helpful can lead to greed and all kinds of suffering (nothing wrong with that if that’s a chosen path for you.) But remember that doesn’t make you any better or any worst for that matter. Certainly that doesn’t give you the power to “judge” (not that I believe you are doing here). :wink: So if I am “aware” that I am alone and I have faith and courage in what I do, it’s not anyone else business how I approach thing. Now that’s martial democracy if you ask me. My life and my body is my responsibility. While it is not an issue of ownship, the “I” within is still responsible for it. For that I need faith and courage. And courage as energy signautre, my friend, is expressed by the function of Dan (gall bladder).

Gull Bladder meridian if is not activate, the person would not be able to stand or even sit. So, I dont buy it about the activation idea.

GBM flows naturally for sure but it’s doesn’t mean that it’s activated to work the way (the martial way) that we wanted it to be. How can the GBM benefit us in the martial path? That’s the question. For this we need to understand the “Kuai Jue” (ruler and compass - rules and regualtions) or principles. This knowledge is what the teachers can instill in the student. It’s not my job to teach and I don’t owe it to anyone to do it here. Go to the teacher. Find one that is knowledgeable if need be.

IMHO,

may be I am wrong, however, until one could clearly describe out what is the activation of the Gull Bladder meridian, how to do it and how do one know it is active. and what is “when done properly”. Then, it is wishfull thinking.

So I am going to tell you the freak’n number one secret of all time. This is taught to me on the very first day by my first Sifu, the late Chow Fook. Actually, it’s the second thing that he taught me. The first thing is run like hell. Now this secret is so powerful that all true Southern Shaolin related arts are doing it and holding it in high esteem. It’s so sacret that they even named a mythical nun after it. Yes, you guessed it. Grid with the toes! Wu Dian Jin luo Di (five point metals touch the ground) or simply called Wu Mei. Well, actually you would need to have the feet parallel to reap the benefit as well. The power of the crane system is in the crane’s feet. That alone is some food for thoughts, my friend. See, the supposed secret is no more than a little detail that we need to pay attention to that’s all.

if one intend to strengthening the flow of Gull Bladder medirian, doing bending kiss the feet legs streching (people with high blood pressure dont do this kiss streching ) or front push kick (gradually from low to mid to high and mid and back to low ) and exhale (people with high blood pressure can do this one, yes, exhale when kick, the qi in the gull bladder medirian travel from head down to feet.)

Technically, We can not strengthen anything. BTW, strong or weak is a state of mind and is relative, if you haven’t notice it yet. We can merely effect or rather encourage a change by observing the pricinples as nature intended. What you suggest is interesting but how does this relates to mindfulness that you seemed to be advocating all the time? When I am standing in a horse stance or goat capturing stance for that matter, I grid with my toes (with intent and essentially taking up the all the slacks in conjunction with other techniques) and I observe the quality of my breath and the flow of Qi is attained. The change of the mind-body continuum happens naturally. We can be no more effective than the farmer who attends to his crops by irregating, fertilizing, or pesticiding. The mind-body continuum grows as it is willing to grow.

these will be an excellent technics compare with of standing in horse stance which is often block out even more because one doesnt know the key of how to place one’s weight.

Is it? You are definitely entitle to your opinion. :slight_smile:

and if one is not telling other how one place one’s weight, explicitly one will not be able to tell much. that is internal training. see, even in chinese character, the cultivating of Qi or cultivation of body are different word.

Well, I don’t see how this relates to the exercise as you shared and the issue of cultivating Qi with weight distribution. May be you would elaborate?

To be continued…

[

17

Continued …

IMHO

Could it possible or slight chance that you might be having a different type of training and experience compare with those who could get into the state and know what is the internal art the chinese ancestor is refer to?

It’s entirely possible. But what does that have to do with where I am coming from. The truth is the truth (I don’t imply that I represents the truth). Water boilds at 100 degrees and it freezes at 0 degree whether it is China or in America. It doesn’t matter. You breath and move the same way as I as long as you are human. Language is just an illusion and another obstacle for truth that’s all.

IMHO, from you post, it seems that you dont describe the different characteristics of using Thinking and Awareness and that is a signature which I am looking for but it is not there.

Look Hendrik, rhetorics and dialectis are but beautiful words. They don’t worth a grand of salt if there is no truth in what someone said. The choice of word may only made what I said sound intelligent but won’t change the fact that it’s hollow. Likewise if the message within is beautiful, I don’t need to embroil in with anything. That is for the audience to find out. Don’t believe in what I said. Go find out if what I said is horse dung or not. If it is, well, I deserves the dung slinging back at me.

furthermore, aslo, the signature of before speaking about medirians, one MUST restore the diaphram ability to a degree via breath work. Yup, this has to be train seperately…

Those I dont find in your post.

Since this is what you propose, it is your option to clarify this statement If you wish to bring the “restore diaphram ability to a degree via breath work”. I don’t see that as a pressing issue to deal with at this point of discussion. One thing at a time, my friend.

but as usual,
I am sure could be the one who dont know what I am talking about. That is a big possibility.

Well, in truth I am not a worm in your bowel. So I wouldn’t know a thing about what you think at all. In fact, I don’t claim I know anything. I just share what I have come across in my study. For sure there are plenty of people who are knowledge and laughing at a loud mouth optimists in forum discussions. But hey I love keyboard sparring just as much as sparring and rolling with my friends and students.

IMHO,
6 harmonies concept is excellent.

That is at least one thing that we can agree on. :slight_smile:

However, if we dont Know what is the different between thinking and Knowing. or in today’s term, get into Alfa wave at will, then how good is the understanding via mind speculation which is a different domain compare with Knowing.

Well, your guess is just as good as mine. I don’t live in an environment that I need to deal with the scientific inclined minds. And I don’t need to collect jargons, albeit unintentionally I have gathered and use quite a few of them, to live my life or teach what I know. It’s okay to not know, my friend. You might want to try that sometimes, it’s rather fun. :wink:

Thus, I have heard.
if one’s dont know how to switch off the thinking and using Awareness, and keep mind quite while the Yee is on focus for more then 5 mins, The Yee lead Qi, Qi transport the body will not surface. Thus, one will not be able to describ and appreciate about the internal training. because one simple dont know what is it.

Okay, thanks for sharing. But that’s meditation 101. So what’s your point really?

ask the question, could one’s cultivation in kung fu is done when Fa Kung (activate the Kung) is such as without thinking, one let go and one enter into the alter state which perform well without thinking or using the mind to manage— this has to do this and that has to do that? if not then one dont have it. and one’s traning will not work right in the time of application because the mind doesnt response well with a mind that is full of processing. as in one could not enter into Alfa wave state with all type of busy beta wave. Yes, one could hook one up with eeg machine and monitor this. Thus I have heard.

Urrrrrr… every fighter understand the Zone as every Qigong Shi (a lot of phoneys watch out!) knows what you describe as the altered state. There is nothing to it. Business is business. Again, I don’t see the point of over analysizing something elementary and foundamental as this.

Just some opinion, and as usual, I could be totally wrong. however if I am right, then one could use modern equipment to detect and lead one into entering the internal training in a better clarity way.

You have your ways of dealing with issue that are important to you and I have mind. There is no need for a dominant one or the right one. It’s all good. Kung Fu isn’t a competition. Kung Fu is life whether you want to live it to the fullest, well, that’s up to you.

I am sorry if I talk straight with little diplomatic and get you or others mad.

We are just talking and having conversation. That’s good.

for life is short, some couldnt even activate thier ren and du vessals for a life time of training disregard of talk theory about Traditional chinese medicine or mind speculation. That is sad because with proper technology one could activate and enter into the gate of internal training within 3 weeks not 30 years. This jewel part of Chinese ancient teaching needs to be preserved and grow. But one needs to be able to enter into the state at will before anything.

Well, if you talk to the mystics, ultimately the mind-body continuum is but Maya or illusion. When in meditation, non of the stuff that we taught about is important. So let it go.

similar to one who has visited NYC they know how NYC is like and there is no reason why NYC is like that and one cant reason why NYC is like that. it is about Know NYC and not logical thinking about How NYC suppose to be like according to oneself.

So, whoever has been in NYC actually could scan, read, and Know who have being there in a conversation because there are signatures could be traced. That is the beauty of Chinese internal art.

One who is in NYC could describ the details of how NYC is and there need not be logic. One who always need to logically speculate or thinking with mind about NYC without being there will not be able to do that.

Well, if that kind of science is your thing by all means. May I simply say that it makes not particular difference to an unflutter mind (an enlightened mind). Do you think that it makes a difference to the Big Guy up there if highschool A’s B-ball team in NYC wins over highschool B’s team while both of them pray to Him for the same favor? It’s just a child’s game.

IMHO, it is not about philosophical. it is a real deal of could one enter into the state or Chin Cie in madarin. Could one do it?

Again, what I am posting is about NeiGong and Waigong, not about Neijia and Waijia. Those are different subject.

Yes, Neigong exist and one needs a sifu to lead one into. reading book doesnt help much.

Peace

Okay, if you say so… :). I just want to say that there are myriad of ways to enlightenment. It’s great that you find one that works well for you. Sure we may not know what your “state” is, but please don’t assume that everyone else are dumb and blind to the light. In fact you might find that the light you see in front of you might just be another blind fold. So…

Warm regards

Mantis108

18

[QUOTE=mantis108;753836]

Well, your guess is just as good as mine. I don’t live in an environment that I need to deal with the scientific inclined minds. And I don’t need to collect jargons, albeit unintentionally I have gathered and use quite a few of them, to live my life or teach what I know. It’s okay to not know, my friend. You might want to try that sometimes, it’s rather fun.

Well, if you talk to the mystics, ultimately the mind-body continuum is but Maya or illusion. When in meditation, non of the stuff that we taught about is important. So let it go.

Warm regards

Mantis108[/QUOTE]

IMHHHHO

1, I dont guess I monitor and measure with machine. could one’s training switch state or not. it is clear.

2,
It is certainly not about mystics but Technology and Process to make things happen.

It is not Maya or Illusion it is Real and it is a part the Nature.

When in meditation everything is important because one has access to more dimension.

Finally,

Why the traditional teaching of standing in horse is no longer appreciated?

Simple, because most cant deliver disregards of with all the talk and preaching and big title or lots of mind spining theory. IMHO.

The ancient said " quiet the mind and use Yee" . until one could quiet one’s mind, one didnt enter into the realm of internal training at all. that simple but very difficult because we in this generation have a hard time of knowing what is mind, not to mention how to turn it off.

peace

19

Gentlemen, gentlemen …..

This discussion is getting soooo deeeep that I am having a hard time following ….:eek: .

See I told you I am a poor student.

So pardon me if I just stay in the wings and try to understand what’s going on first.

And where is my dictionary …..:smiley:

Warmest Regards.

Eric

:slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

20

I would have to agree that this age old internal/external North/South type of conversation is a road with no end. Those with different exposures would find that there is no clear segregation and that all roads lead to the way. Others with dedication in the heart would submit the one path which also leads to the way. In the end everyone is obtaining the same some maybe clearer others maybe diverse yet all if dedicated and directed correctly shall succeed.

The nature which one has defined can no longer be the nature that is for the nature should be changing thus it is not to be defined as much as lived.

Same with all the internal/meditative philosphizing is really simple metaphoric debate where again there are many methods and again all lead to the same way. The best method is to be any state in any condition at any time at will only then is one free …this also means letting go of ideals that one is so attached to.

Everyone has a lot to learn from each other, where there are differences analyse then accept and move on so there is more to learn as opposed to a stagnation :slight_smile:

Regards,
Wu Chanlong