Some thoughts on the myth of Southern Shaolin - for Eric Ling

[Hendrik]

[QUOTE=Shaolin Master;754082]I would have to agree that this age old internal/external North/South type of conversation is a road with no end. Those with different exposures would find that there is no clear segregation and that all roads lead to the way. Regards,

Wu Chanlong[/QUOTE]

I totally dis agree big time.

Why?

Until all these basic definiton and criterions are clear and we have the technology to manifest it at will.

There is no reality but all philosophical individual mind speculation which is your guess is as good as my guess, however, close to non could make anything work in full.

Now with the biofeedback machine we could monitor and could know what work or what not work.

A big part of verification and bridging from the ancient Chinese Internal art to the modern science mapping were done by master similar to Dr. Chow Cien Chuan of Emei 12 Zhuang, Dr. Ma Li-Dang the pioneer of the six healing sound and others who decicate thier life in helping to preserve and modernized the chinese traditional art.

So, we do have platform to stand on if we would like to do research and face the reality.

But, IMHO, I found lots of so called martial artists today have no idea about even the basic of going internal starting how to do To Na or diaphramatic breathing, how to do quiet mind use yee, and finally no where close to know how to use Yee to lead Qi.

without the knowing or handling of the To Na and Quiet mind, one’s Kung fu is as said in SEA “Limited Company” it might work when one is young strong and fast, or when one use brute force, or when one is bullying weaker people, or when one is using trick, or when one is born with stronger faster in one’s physical.

But those are not internal cultivation is about. internal cultivation is about making the weak strong. making the in-edequate full. making the broken complete again. making the sick healty.

Again, this is not thier fault but due to the condition of China changing for the past 150 years, most people lost thier basic chinese traditional mind set and practice while trying to import western mind set. NOthing good or bad it is just if one intend to go internal then one needs to know the Chinese mind set to detail to know what is happening. Cant mix and match some superficial chinese knowlegde with western speculation or reasoning logic to get things work. for in the domain of internal art it has is own logic and that logic might not be the logic we even could dream about if we dont investigate deep.

Due to these type of educational dis-efficiency. Chinese martial art suffer.

So, either we face the issue straight or we could continous of pretend we know and pad on each others back to give face to each other but go no where , or using the brute force method and keep threatning others that " I could beat you so you shut up." the ancestors art is keep draining and damaging if we dont realized what we are doing.

Furthermore, I am not impressed lately on some (not all) who is doing research in WCK history because they have no idea what so ever about internal cultivation but thinking learning this set from this name brand and that posture … is internal which make them pioneer. In reality, take a look, how many in this world is doing Taiji or meditation or standing post, and how many will pass the test if they were plug into the EEG or HRV machine to see if they could actually make a different in thier body-mind and how much.

In Chinese we says, the loyar words is reversing the ear. the proper medicine taste bitter. Do we ready to face our issue in our own lineage once for all and set the next generation free? That is the question we all has to face.

Just some opinion.

[Shaolin_Master]

This is become a little funny and a little ignorant as you are assuming that no one understands the basics of martial arts.

The problem lies not on needing to understand internal cultivation and development it is that you assume that the only way is that which you have understood.

In my “limited” experience I have had a few little opportunities to study with various teachers/masters…and as an example:

When I first commenced the study of Zimenquan with Master Mao Yimin, the fist thing was wuji zhanzhuang. The key was stuctural alignment in that instance, which was essential because as soon as it was aligned then there was no waiting nor development period, rather one would feel the difference (qi to some) immediately, the development or cultivation then commenced, after a few months of this practice then the Liangyi Zhanzhuang was explained, this was now completely different and the intention, breath, cycle changed once again. This structure however did not seem natural but this was the commencement of true development, the first made sense in cultivating internal but much I would discover that the second laid the martial foundation. Had I not continued the second would seem estranged but in fact was the development key.

Many years before however when practicing Chuojiao, the Zhanzhuang had a different purpose and the intention differed, with a wave/fan dantian approach to the internal breath or qi, however it was ideal for the intended outcome.

Yet again when meeting my grandfather (wife’s side) Master Yu, a 89 year old qigong practitioner (Xiinyi Liuhe and other Neijiaquan in his young years), his methods had a whole series of knocking, rubbing and massaging various points in combination with practice and this allows the amazing power that he has.

etc… different but same…thus there is no right definition only right cultivation and practice for the purpose and in accordance with the method laid down by our ancestors.

Lastly, some martial arts were simply ‘brute’ and have done well as such, again that is their purpose.

If your context is WCK (Which I also am not a practitioner of), then I am unsure but given the popularity it is bound to have greater error in transmission, thus your point holds true. In the greater context unfortunately it cannot be summated by your single experience (nor your teacher’s or any others).

Oh, please do not continue with the very naive rant about china losing tradition, many of my teachers are from the mainland (Others are from Nanyang) and there is no way that they have a lack of tradition skill or internal cultivation. Yes on the onset China is modernising, so has most of the world but in the same manner there will always be the traditionalists and the modern traditionalists (i.e. the development traditionalist).

Lastly, having been a Research chemist in the past and entrenched with the scientific method, I am always for the testing of such via whatever safe means to have further understanding and correction of internal cultivation, noting that this is continuously done in China and around the world with many extraordinary results (some real some not), yet the explanation is almost always left onto tradition.

Even in Australia they are realising that all the scientific methods and ideal training or sport method has not necessarily developed more capable athletes, because in the past some people did things in a way particular to themselves, yet these methods were suited to themselves, thus there is an aspect of individual nature which is a variable in every equation.

The want of sicentific measurement to validate tradition is however an interesting irony. Traditional Masters measure results by outcomes be it combat effectiveness or health or mind etc not necessarily by a machine.

Thanks
Wu Chanlong

[Hendrik]

[QUOTE=Shaolin Master;754115]This is become a little funny and a little ignorant as you are assuming that no one understands the basics of martial arts.

The problem lies not on needing to understand internal cultivation and development it is that you assume that the only way is that which you have understood.

In my “limited” experience I have had a few little opportunities to study with various teachers/masters…and as an example:

When I first commenced the study of Zimenquan with Master Mao Yimin, the fist thing was wuji zhanzhuang. The key was stuctural alignment in that instance, which was essential because as soon as it was aligned then there was no waiting nor development period, rather one would feel the difference (qi to some) immediately, the development or cultivation then commenced, after a few months of this practice then the Liangyi Zhanzhuang was explained, this was now completely different and the intention, breath, cycle changed once again. This structure however did not seem natural but this was the commencement of true development, the first made sense in cultivating internal but much I would discover that the second laid the martial foundation. Had I not continued the second would seem estranged but in fact was the development key.

Many years before however when practicing Chuojiao, the Zhanzhuang had a different purpose and the intention differed, with a wave/fan dantian approach to the internal breath or qi, however it was ideal for the intended outcome.

Yet again when meeting my grandfather (wife’s side) Master Yu, a 89 year old qigong practitioner (Xiinyi Liuhe and other Neijiaquan in his young years), his methods had a whole series of knocking, rubbing and massaging various points in combination with practice and this allows the amazing power that he has.

etc… different but same…thus there is no right definition only right cultivation and practice for the purpose and in accordance with the method laid down by our ancestors.

Lastly, some martial arts were simply ‘brute’ and have done well as such, again that is their purpose.

If your context is WCK (Which I also am not a practitioner of), then I am unsure but given the popularity it is bound to have greater error in transmission, thus your point holds true. In the greater context unfortunately it cannot be summated by your single experience (nor your teacher’s or any others).

Oh, please do not continue with the very naive rant about china losing tradition, many of my teachers are from the mainland (Others are from Nanyang) and there is no way that they have a lack of tradition skill or internal cultivation. Yes on the onset China is modernising, so has most of the world but in the same manner there will always be the traditionalists and the modern traditionalists (i.e. the development traditionalist).

Lastly, having been a Research chemist in the past and entrenched with the scientific method, I am always for the testing of such via whatever safe means to have further understanding and correction of internal cultivation, noting that this is continuously done in China and around the world with many extraordinary results (some real some not), yet the explanation is almost always left onto tradition.

Even in Australia they are realising that all the scientific methods and ideal training or sport method has not necessarily developed more capable athletes, because in the past some people did things in a way particular to themselves, yet these methods were suited to themselves, thus there is an aspect of individual nature which is a variable in every equation.

The want of sicentific measurement to validate tradition is however an interesting irony. Traditional Masters measure results by outcomes be it combat effectiveness or health or mind etc not necessarily by a machine.

Thanks
Wu Chanlong[/QUOTE]

you have a good point,

However, Is it neccessary to attack me instead of stick with technical?

This is what I post

IMHO, I found lots of so called martial artists today have no idea about even the basic of going internal starting how to do To Na or diaphramatic breathing, how to do quiet mind use yee, and finally no where close to know how to use Yee to lead Qi.

did I say Lots or I say All except me?

since I say lots then,

I dont see a reason to post the following.

[B]This is become a little funny and a little ignorant as you are assuming that no one understands the basics of martial arts.

The problem lies not on needing to understand internal cultivation and development it is that you assume that the only way is that which you have understood. [/B]

Let’s get to the topic instead of these ego stuffs.

As for Zhang Zhuang…etc,

such as

“The key was stuctural alignment in that instance, which was essential because as soon as it was aligned then there was no waiting nor development period, rather one would feel the difference (qi to some) immediately, the development or cultivation then commenced,”

Could you explain in detail what is the cause and effect of this method in term of the three basic core of the internal art— the body, breathing, and mind?

We know today and proven scientifically,

in order to get Qi manifest in a Qigung practioner, we need to get into alfa brain wave state. or generate 8 to 10 hZ of brain wave freequency.

How is your strucural alignement effect the brain wave?
and if there is effect how does it effect?
if there is no effect on the brain wave, then is what one feel Qi or something else?

See, I dont buy the story of ---- yes, stand there make alignment in the body and everything wil come, and that is the full story. NOPE, there got to be how to deal with mind.

and also it is know fact that , Qigong is about let go or using Yee to lead Qi and if needed transport the body. without those capability, the training is not full. IMHO.

Further more,
We also know today that if one could not do Diaphramatic breathing then the evoke of Qi is hopeless.

So,
NOpe, it cant be just stand there and work with the body only, the ancient said " tuning the mind, breathing, and body" 3 tuning.

In today’s term,

Brain Wave, Diaphramatic deep breathing, and loosen up the physical body.

Those could be monitor.

and,

if we dont have away of monitoring, then the outcome is not very predictable.

It would appreciate you keep everything technical in the discussion so that we all learn, you might have a good way to solve my issue which I am facing. and a collective of solving issues itself is contributing to the art. IMHHO

Peace

[Shaolin_Master]

off the ego stuff…

The point of the scenarios was to outline different methods to achieve a common outcome, not to outline the complete practice. That level of detail on that is not something that would be outlined here. The basic concepts of yi qi shen xi qing etc are present in all methods.

I do not know nor would I want to know the physiological or electromagnetic basis for the practice (brain wave or otherwise), this is something that would belong to those interested in such.

I simple terms correct structure is both a manifestation of rootness whilst lightness combined or rather as one, body, spine the centre , the limbs all feel in place and the sensation clear, breath is a resolution of consistency and undisturbed flow and mind is of clarity without despair etc. this basis would then allow for the further aspects …from the ability to centre to that of transforming whether to energize up into the mind/brain or round the centre or straight to the centre or through the fingers for Wu Baiqian or the jiao for zhuanjiao etc all of which is not to be outlined (this includes the intention and the breathing method). This short explanation would not satisfy some yet it is a subjective thing which also includes difference of definition of terms. The fact is, similar manifestations occur on every single expersion of force, this could be energic but it is also biochemical, since everything is concentrated but without the pressure of such then the intention is free which is like a lightheaded buzz. Even if this is explained few would really understand the meaning as it would be a different interpretation.

Yi is common to everything as is qi as is breathing. Diaphramatic breathing as in opera singers differs from Dantien breathing depending on the method.

Still not sure of the point of all this though.
Best to search those interested in brain waves and all that, we are but humble (amateur at best) martial practitioners:)

Regards
Wu Chanlong

[Vajramusti]

wing chun in singapore

I would be interested in any however brief survey like comments by Eric on wing chun in Singapore.
Used to be- Singapore required governmental certification for any public teaching of martial arts.
In my travels between the USA and India- I often stop in Singapore…and I have stopped in Bangkok, Tokyo, seoul and taipei.
Given my curiosities I try to find out what I can about martial arts wherever I go- given the limitations of time and budget.
I used to know a wing chun person fairly well, in Singapore but have lost track of him. No answer to a phone call to one number that someone gave me.
And in the yellow pages there was Leung Ting’s branch listing. I tried to make different phone calls to places listed in the yellow pages- admittedly not the best way to search and geta sense of what’s going on with an art..

joy chaudhuri

[Eric_Ling]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;754156]I would be interested in any however brief survey like comments by Eric on wing chun in Singapore.
Used to be- Singapore required governmental certification for any public teaching of martial arts.
In my travels between the USA and India- I often stop in Singapore…and I have stopped in Bangkok, Tokyo, seoul and taipei.
Given my curiosities I try to find out what I can about martial arts wherever I go- given the limitations of time and budget.
I used to know a wing chun person fairly well, in Singapore but have lost track of him. No answer to a phone call to one number that someone gave me.
And in the yellow pages there was Leung Ting’s branch listing. I tried to make different phone calls to places listed in the yellow pages- admittedly not the best way to search and geta sense of what’s going on with an art..

joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]

Hi ,

There are few Wing Chun classes in Singapore that I know of.

Besides Master Kus , I only know of 2 more; one along Lavender Road and the other somewhere in Pasir Ris; situated in the eastern part of Singapore.

Yes there was a time that all MAs must be approved by MACU or Martial Arts Control
Unit, an outfit reporting to the Criminal Investigation Department of the Singapore Police.

I was told that this licensing is no longer a requirement.

The thought back then was that gangsters were somehow related to MAs.

Me, a gangster:confused:

I must be the nicest guy I know .

Warmest Regards.

Eric

[mantis108]

Gentlemen,

There are good points raised both by Shaolin Master (thanks for providing personal training perspective and experience) and Hendrik as well. I would love to have input from Eric as well. Also thanks Wu-Ji, Yum Cha for the input. Please keep them coming.

Hendrik, I understand where you are coming from. It’s great that your colleagues have worked on the connection between brainwaves and Qigong and they have good results. But this would be quite localized experimentation IMHO. Emei 12 Zhuang however great is really a rare type of Qigong (or at least not as popular as Ba Duan Jin, Yijinjing, Taijiquan, etc). The investigation into this Qigong might help solve some issues with the Wing Chun Kuen genesis and perhaps even bring about new revelation of Kung Fu study and all, but in the grand scheme of Kung Fu, it’s not the only one that can yield tangible results IMHO. I appreciate you for bringing that perspective to the discussion; however, we need to keep an open mind and a boarder perspective IMHO. Just a thought.

More to come later…

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, I understand where you are coming from. It’s great that your colleagues have worked on the connection between brainwaves and Qigong and they have good results. But this would be quite localized experimentation IMHO. ------

Sorry to inform you that nope that is not my work.
I am just a messanger.

Brain wave and other ancient and scientific research had been done by pioneers such as Late internal art master, chinese doctor, and Martial artists Ma Li-Tang ( was praised as the father of modern Qigong, in Beijing and University even have written book on it.

As for Qi is reasonance thoery, that also has being a modern model from BeiJing to Taipei.
The key is to understood and have a better model and process on how to enter the state, settle stablely in the state…

and that is much much more effective then the type of "stand in the horse and keep standing until somedays one become pioneer " type of traditional chinese martial art teaching.

So, it is not something localized experiments.

Not to mention, the western university research has also reseach in the relationship of brain wave and body..etc.

So, if one could handle the basic of MInd, breathing, and physical. one could certainly enter the state. otherwise, one has not much control or the kung is unstable. That is a fact.

Emei 12 Zhuang however great is really a rare type of Qigong (or at least not as popular as Ba Duan Jin, Yijinjing, Taijiquan, etc). The investigation into this Qigong might help solve some issues with the Wing Chun Kuen genesis and perhaps even bring about new revelation of Kung Fu study and all, but in the grand scheme of Kung Fu, it’s not the only one that can yield tangible results IMHO. ------

Brain wave, HRV, skin temperature and other scientifically monitorable data is beyond the methodology or Kung Fa (kung method) or style.

It is human basic.

Kung Fa or style shows different way of entering into the state. Some is more effective then others however the Human basic is human disregard of is it WCK or Taiji.. Could one enter the state at will, Could one activate the state with the Kung Fa, and how effective is the Kung Fa. Those all needs to be answer based on Human basic.

ONLY those Kung Fa that could lead one to have a handling on state is body and mind will produce KUng Fu. otherwise it is all theory and a wasting of life.

I appreciate you for bringing that perspective to the discussion; however, we need to keep an open mind and a boarder perspective IMHO. Just a thought.-------

I agree with you totally about being open minded. However, what if we know what other is talking about and we know that what the other is talking about doesnt deliver under the scientific measurement. Will you accept that? or is it by the name of Open minded that we cover up our own lost face?

See, the bottom line is could one’s Kung Fa turn into Kung Fu. Could the technology work and how good could it work? IMHO.

Philosophy without be able to deliver, that is nice but sometimes wasting life.

Best Regards

[mantis108]

Hi Hendrik,

I gather that you are trying to drive home the point that the brain wave signature reaching a certian number after the “gong” practice or the so called “state” is ultimately what you reckon as having the proof that “internal” Kung fu exist or effective (man, you don’t know how much that sounds like “Dragonball Z”). This is really the great divide for you right?

Okay, let’s assume that you are right all along. Let’s assume that brain wave 300 (figuratively speaking) and above happens after “Qigong”(whatever form that is). This is the “standard”. So another one who registered this BW300+ is going to be doing “real” Kung Fu as you put it. Anyone who isn’t then they don’t have “real” Kung Fu. Am I correct so far?

Now, I assume that these scientists have test subjects and control groups right? This is fundamental in all scientific experiments right? Now, my question is did they use test subject that actually have real fight experience or did they just us some self proclaimed master know-it-all? Did they check those Qigong master’s brain wave before and after Qigong and brain wave before and after a fight (resistive opponent). Did they use control groups of brawlers, traditional martial artist and martial athletes with the same procedures? Then they obtained the results?

The fact that bw300+ (if there’s even such a case) means practically nothing other then that a “change” is observed which I am sure various level of brain waves would happen through various stress levels. This is highly conditional and by no mean objective. Threat and stress are subjective things and each living organism (human or otherwise) would response differently (ie brain wave flutations). BTW imposing such a condition on all Kung Fu (martial arts) practitioners, it’s totally off the mark to put it nicely. On the other hand, we could say that this is classic case of abusive use of “science” to support the notion of the great divide of the so-called internal practice elitism. I would be very careful with such an interpretation of brain wave and I am sure real scientist would have placed a caveat on this kind of data.

Also, how does this brain wave thing changes the physcial power output? Did the scientists demonstrated that? There are tons of people out there that want to sell you “internal elitism”. So I would caution about this type of abusive use of science to snub traditional methodologies that are obtained empirically. Beside, science often proves that there are much wisdom in “old wives tales”. So… in some way science is just a tool to show that what work works. That’s all.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Eric_Ling]

Aaaaaagggghhhhh, I am still not getting involved until I at least understand what is being discussed here.:eek: :eek: :eek:

That or we all Skype-conference and speak in Mandarin/Cantonese/Fukien or meet in September and show & tell.

At this time I am divided between taking a nap or visiting Mr. Carlsberg……

Warmest Regards all you techno-CKF high hands.

Eric

[Hendrik]

some basic:

“”

1“”

2

12—18/ 1— 2

3“”

This above shows how important is brain wave monitoring.

“”

Without this basic, how is one going to handle advance stuffs?

[Hendrik]

Contious from the basic above

This is the
YIGan or Yi JIng Jing example to show why the mind handling and breathing handling are important.

2

3

all these are just basic. now a days lots of people dont know this and some argue big time on the need of these basic; however they make claim on thier internal art expertise. that lead me to question how to be an expert if one have no idea about the basic?

just some thing to share.

[Hendrik]

Let’s face it.

without be able to enter into the state…etc

how the world one could do the following?

,

()

http://www.taiji.net.cn/Article/Class4/Class14/200704/5066.html

:…

without be able to handle the mind and entering the concious state needed. the rest is hopeless. …

Brain wave monitoring makes entering the door more effective.

Just some thoughts.

[Hendrik]

So, from above, disregard of Wudang’s Taiji, Shao Lin’s Yijingjing or Yigang in cantonese, or Emei 12 zhuang.

They all have a basic requirement. and

now,

we could monitor these basic. Nothing mysterious and Internal Kung exist clearly.

Mantis, I hope these above by evidence answer all of your questions.

NOpe, I am not talkin WCK. I am talking basic stuffs only.

peace

[Hendrik]

With the basic 3 keys as above,

then one proceed into the internal art to learn about the two Catagory of internal art — The Moving Kung or Still Kung

Moving internal art means the body is in action with the mind relatively still.
Still internal art means the body is still with the internal Qi is moving or transporting.

to start to practice, then, one has to know how to deal with the Moving which is a manifestation of entering to the “State” or evoke’s Qi. and one has to learn with how to evoke the Qi , circulate it, and return it to the original when the practice is done. otherwise, one better dont start.

Lots of step by step process.

With today’s biofeedback technology, we could be more safe and predictable learn to handle the basic key.

and for different style, lineage, they have thier uniqueness in how to handle thier mind, breathing or Qi, and body. and uniqueness comes with strength and weakness.

all these have to be clear. otherwise, one cant start any internal art cultivation. and IMHO, without the above minimum understanding, one doesnt know what is the full view of internal art cultivation, not to mention to achieve something advance.

peace

Just some thoughts

[Hendrik]

IMHO,

let’s look at Chong Jing and Inch Jing join power about White Crane Jing so Brother Eric and Wuji and other high hands, please advise and correct me for my ignorance,

Thus, I have heard, ,

Chong Jing is said to be the jing similar to generated with a soft whip. it is a type of bouncing/springing type of Jing.
.

Inch Jing is a type of penetrating and explosive Jing.

Join power is due to to issu this type of Inch Jing one needs the support of the Join power.

Those who has master Chong Jing could issue or emulate similar to Inch Jing type of power. as if the whip’s body is soft but the tip of the whip is hard.

.

HOwever, those who mastered Inch Jing will not be able to generate Chong Jing because

This is due to these two types of power generation are different and they have differences interm of the level of depth.

Chong Jing needs indepth Internal training to master it. and Inch Jing is not as demanin in the internal training.

With the above, we know today, the Yik Kam lineage of SLT is supposed to cultivate a type of Jing close to Chong Jing. and the methodology of cultivation is using the Emei 12 Zhuang’s snake slide worm move technology.

Thus, when this type of power is master, it provide the practitioner a type of Energized “Water sleeve” which could activate 1, Reel, flip bounce… (for stick, link, feel…), 2, issuing Chong JIng or Inch Jing type of Jing at will.

For those who have no idea what is a “water sleeve” the following is a good clip about “water sleeve” or the sleeve of the role in the cantonese opera, pay attention to the female role and how she uses her sleeve.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vg4R4aVCMkM

Just some thoughts

[mantis108]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;754252]So, from above, disregard of Wudang’s Taiji, Shao Lin’s Yijingjing or Yigang in cantonese, or Emei 12 zhuang.

They all have a basic requirement. and

now,

we could monitor these basic. Nothing mysterious and Internal Kung exist clearly.

Mantis, I hope these above by evidence answer all of your questions.

NOpe, I am not talkin WCK. I am talking basic stuffs only.

peace[/QUOTE]

You know Hendrik, when Shaolin Master mentioned about arrogance, I felt that he might be a bit harsh. But now that you use some silly novice quote (properly from a $1.25 Ren Men Bi book that you can get in any Chinese book store) to do your rebuttal, I am starting to think that he is right. Your ego is really blindsiding you, my friend. I asked if you have concrete scientific report from those experiements that you hold so highly but you instead giving me some unknown writer who did nothing more that regurgitating something that every Chinese who have some degree of Kung Fu training can come across. The person or persons who wrote those passages at best have superficial knowledge of Qigong not to mention they properly haven’t had any real Kung Fu experience. You can buy into their BS and you accuse me of having sallow knowledge of a novice? I am no master but I am a Kung Fu man with self respect. I am sorry that this is just getting out of hand. I came to this dialogue with you in good faith and all you are interested in is some silly games like this. I don’t see a point in continuing with this discussion.

So I think we should call an end to this discussion. Good luck with whatever study that you are going through.

Mantis108

[Hendrik]

[QUOTE=mantis108;754391]You know Hendrik, when Shaolin Master mentioned about arrogance, I felt that he might be a bit harsh. But now that you use some silly novice quote (properly from a $1.25 Ren Men Bi book that you can get in any Chinese book store) to do your rebuttal, I am starting to think that he is right.

Your ego is really blindsiding you, my friend.

I asked if you have concrete scientific report from those experiements that you hold so highly but you instead giving me some unknown writer who did nothing more that regurgitating something that every Chinese who have some degree of Kung Fu training can come across.

The person or persons who wrote those passages at best have superficial knowledge of Qigong not to mention they properly haven’t had any real Kung Fu experience. You can buy into their BS and you accuse me of having sallow knowledge of a novice?

I am no master but I am a Kung Fu man with self respect.

I am sorry that this is just getting out of hand.

I came to this dialogue with you in good faith and all you are interested in is some silly games like this.

I don’t see a point in continuing with this discussion.

So I think we should call an end to this discussion. Good luck with whatever study that you are going through.

Mantis108[/QUOTE]

Do I accuse you anything?

I dont, read my posts. here is no Game either.

and also, whatever your level of Kung Fu that is reality. It will not change due to anyone’s word.

Since You make the following claim.

“If we understand that the 8 vassals (or extra meridians) and 12 meridians (all organs are connected with these and the organs are houses of our subtle elements such as Qi) are essentially involved at all times as long as we are living, we simply shouldn’t or couldn’t seperate the mind-body continuum into external and internal. People who advocate that simply don’t have any real knowledge on human anatomy from an ancient scientific perspective IMHO.”

My interest is focus on presenting it is real that There is Internal art , which you believe it is otherwise.

You want concrete Scientific study?

Read Late DR Ma Li-DAng’s work on Yang Qi Gong of Beijing
Read the book from Professor Lim Siao-Chong of Taiwan,
Read the modern TCMedicine theory book which Title The Music of Qi.

All publication is from 1990 to today.

and
What were known today support what I have posting be it those are ancint stuffs be it from the unknown writers. If they have the kungfu, and post the truth, then so be it why look down on them?

I just show you those people who advocate in internal know what is going on be it in the past or present day.

You dont have to agree with me and you can show me your evidents

But, What is the point of not staying in technical discussion but attacking me?
If you dont like to discuss, then dont discuss. Why all these

BTW.

"Originally Posted by Shaolin Master
This is become a little funny and a little ignorant as you are assuming that no one understands the basics of martial arts. "

he said Ignorant instead of arrogance so dont qoute him wrong.

as for your accusation on “… some unknown writer who did nothing more that regurgitating …”

IMHO, TRUTH is TRUTH disregard of big name or not.

I am just someone who love to find out what is going on and share.

Thank you for your sharing of your view and your emotion.

Best luck for you journey.

Peace

[Eric_Ling]

Hi everybody,

Robert, Brother Hendrik and Shaolin Master,

I want to begin by saying that I saw this coming .

Every time a topic about Shaolin , internal/external and North/South opens up, we are going to have discord.

Just like what I encounter when I travel and meet folks from diverse styles around here and when any of the above creeps in our exchange.

How we manage the dissonance is really more important to me. The divide is not expected to go away anytime soon.

I started a thread in this forum to discuss the couplet 10,000 cherries blossom on 1 tree & 10,000 methods originated in Shaolin a while back and it was running in the same manner but fortunately it was aborted before any major damage was inflicted.

To me, harmony tops everything.

I guess I got to go with the statement that CKF is all about results and not text book theories and explanations.

Or like my Sifu use to answer me when I start to ask one too many questions; train, train and train some more.. I actually spoke about this in the TV documentary that New York company did 2 years back and some of you might even catch it on your TV networks sometime this year.

This is also something that a Penang Master said to me recently; all traditional CKF that lasts till the present time must have merits or otherwise they would have been decimated a long time ago.

So every style is right I love his attitude.

And humbly I think it would do us well if we all emulate these great Masters who have taken more salt than any of us would have eaten rice

They talk about each other arts and methods with GRACE; really none of that my method is more right than yours or I hold the only true answer mentality anywhere.

To me CKF is still pure Art with little science and I enjoy it this way. I could be 100 wrong here but I am totally happy with my Kung Fu and the way I do it. And as with any arts, it bores down to a question of personal taste.

I want to quote my Sifu again and this is something I teach all my students; you know you are doing the art right when you feel JOY

Gentlemen, like I said in my earlier post; let’s agree to disagree.

Failing which, Robert I would suggest to close this thread.

With respect,

Eric

[Yum_Cha]

I think harmony is highly overated. Friction and pressure create diamonds.

Perhaps this is relevent, perhaps not, its certainly off track, but what made you change from the Chow Fook lessons to Northern Mantis?