Some novel ideas for tournaments in the 21st century...

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
21

I can attest personally to this
my chinese martial arts are traditional
shang tung eagle claw under Grandmaster Leung Fu &
,Tai Shing Pep Kwar monkey Grandmaster Chan Sau Chung
specifically

they are both northern styles of cma and are both traditional.

i’ve seen my fellow classmates suffer because of ignorance like this. one of them performed a traditional drunken staff form @ nick scrimas tournament in orlando earlier in july only to have an official say to him that he would be scored lower because drunken kung fu isn’t really traditional.

look people this kung fu wasn’t made up this morning, it’s unfortunate that because wushu has incorporated elements of these styles and made it all flash that traditional stylists who do the real deal have to suffer.

fu pow i commend your noble attempt at keeping the traditional arts pure, i respect that, but , please at least do some research into what i have said and you will understand that these styles are indeed traditional.

22

Since when are kips for evasion?

23

Um, evasion is a martial application. One of the more important ones, in fact. there’s nothing questionable about getting out of the way of a punch.

I understand your point about gymnastics/wushu vs. traditional forms, but there is still a difference between the two. Being able to jump real high shouldn’t disqualify someone from traditional competition.

Kip ups, splits, jump into splits and butterfly kicks all have application (even if only evasive). If they are built into the form as applicable techniques there should be no problem. If a competitor has to stop, run to the corner of the ring, and take a running leap to do a sequence of jumps/flips/twists – well, he’s doing gymnastics. If a judge lets that get by in a traditional ring, it tells me the judge either has no knowledge of martial arts (unlikely), or the competitor is his student.

24

Originally posted by SaMantis
[B]Um, evasion is a martial application. One of the more important ones, in fact. there’s nothing questionable about getting out of the way of a punch.

But is it necessary to do something flashy to get out of the way?

Unlikely.

If a competitor has to stop, run to the corner of the ring, and take a running leap to do a sequence of jumps/flips/twists – well, he’s doing gymnastics. If a judge lets that get by in a traditional ring, it tells me the judge either has no knowledge of martial arts (unlikely), or the competitor is his student. [/B]

Good point. No running around either. :smiley: :wink:

25

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Since when are kips for evasion?

What are they for then?

26

Getting your arse up off the ground.

27

if someone is standing on the side of you and thrusts a spear at your ankles, then yeah, I can see a kip as an evasion tactic…:rolleyes:

28

Hey man, it’s happend

29

Good thread…

You know all of these problems for us traditional kung fu people is what i believe led China to create the standardized sets in wushu, so that everyone would have to compete using their standard…

Now I have judged at many tournaments, and its not easy for judges as well as for the promoters. The promoters want everyone happy and most of the time are not getting much financial support or any sponsorship.

There are so many issues concerning the separation between classical and non-classical. Most judges are volunteers too and quite hard to get together at the same time to train…

Now with alot of these splits and things… Some are in traditional, while some are just flash. I personally would like to see a separation and would like to see traditional kung fu get the recognition it deserves…

Imagine a southern mantis guy doing a hand form against a Choy Lay Fut or Northern Shaolin stylist… I try to judge the person by their focus, structure (balance and stability) and expression… By I could be wrong when judging the Southern mantis… But why am I judging them in the 1st place? Well… I am a volunteer, you know???

So we have to take all this with a grain of salt and do the best we can to promote Chinese Martial Arts…

Joe

30

If traditionalists are winning with acrobatics over strong stances, power, and focus then it means the judges don’t know what they’re doing. Disallowing specific techniques because they remind you of modern wushu won’t make them any smarter or more qualified.

I have a question, if kungfu forms weren’t made for competition or performance, why have traditional forms competition at all? Traditional forms competition will never work for everyone because not all traditionalists agree on exactly what the best way to do forms are. Too many traditionalists believe their particular training methods are better than others, so you’ll see quite a wide variety of different ways to do forms. Some people out there even use cartwheels in fights(Sakuraba for example), but I’m sure a big chunck of the traditionalists would laugh if I stuck one in a form. Anyway, I think traditional forms competition is about as fair as it’s ever going to get. Traditional wushu is about combat anyway, so why does it matter if you get a shiny medal? There’s allready various (legal) competition formats better suited to traditional wushu… San Shou, NHB, Kuoshu, etc. I can’t imagine any kind of competition that tries to fit 120+ non sport fighting styles into a single performance sport format being terribly successful(from a fairness point of view).

31

brad has rested the correct across his thighs while sitting in horse stance for half an hour

32

Originally posted by Brad
[B]If traditionalists are winning with acrobatics over strong stances, power, and focus then it means the judges don’t know what they’re doing.

Agree.

Disallowing specific techniques because they remind you of modern wushu won’t make them any smarter or more qualified.

Partially agree. Better judges AND disallow gymnastics techs.

I have a question, if kungfu forms weren’t made for competition or performance, why have traditional forms competition at all?

Traditionally forms were not intended for competition or performance. They were intended for transmission of fighting techniques and a way to develop the body attributes/body mechanics that support the techniques.

I agree that the idea of a “form competition” is kind of silly from the get go.

Traditional forms competition will never work for everyone because not all traditionalists agree on exactly what the best way to do forms are. Too many traditionalists believe their particular training methods are better than others, so you’ll see quite a wide variety of different ways to do forms.

Partially true. Many styles are interrelated so that they share similar techs, body mechanics and training methods. Joes example of a Choy Lay Fut guy judging a SPM guys is a perfect example of something that doesn’t fly. Where as a Bak Mei, Bak Hok, Lung Ying or Wing Chun practioner would be adequate to judge an SPM practitioner. That is the ideal but as Joe pointed out, there isn’t always an ideal judge around.

Some people out there even use cartwheels in fights(Sakuraba for example), but I’m sure a big chunck of the traditionalists would laugh if I stuck one in a form.

Yes because it violate principles common to almost all traditional Chinese combat arts…as does locking out your elbows, jumping around, holding impossibly low stances, etc. Most of what the modern wushu set does.

Anyway, I think traditional forms competition is about as fair as it’s ever going to get. Traditional wushu is about combat anyway, so why does it matter if you get a shiny medal? There’s allready various (legal) competition formats better suited to traditional wushu… San Shou, NHB, Kuoshu, etc. I can’t imagine any kind of competition that tries to fit 120+ non sport fighting styles into a single performance sport format being terribly successful(from a fairness point of view).

My point is that the forms “competition” should be more of a forms “demonstration” and then you should be required to demonstrate your art in a sparring format.

If you are doing this fancy $hit in your form (ie cartwheels) then you’d better be prepared to use it in the ring. If your form and your fighting look completely different then people are gonna know that your form is bull$hit because you can’t translate it against a live resisting opponent.

But I think it should go both ways.

If you are a fighter competing in a TCMA sparring event then you should be required to demonstrate your form. If you claim to be using TCMA techs and body mechanics in the ring then you should be able to demonstrate those principles in some type of form.

IMO TCMA is forms AND fighting and the fact that there is a divorce of the two is a path that can lead to nothing but the demise of TCMA’s.

Just go take a look at a karate tournament…the american predecessor to kung fu tournaments… and you’ll see what I mean. :wink:

33

A while ago…

They divided the south from north, the long from short, and in some cases had a division based on one style in competition… It seemed better than, but at that time I was not judging or paying attention, I was to busy having fun…

But even Choy Lay Fut, to be very specific like lockin the elbow won’t fly either because even in the same family principles vary sifu to sifu… I can usualy tell when someone learned from Grandmaster Lee Koon Hung because he was always changing minute things around.

So again I think traditional would be best better catergorised, because usually, not always, the traditional styles that have certain moves similar to wushu are northern… I once competed in Broadsword with a bunch of Northern players who were doing Butterfly kicks, splits and etc…

But as a Southern player, there were quite a few of us, we all lost and I was surprised who was winning… The people who won did not use the sword so much as they did there kicks and jumps. Now I only know one Northern Broadswword form, so clearly I am not a Northern player, but maybe even splitting weapons into Southern/Northern would be better?

I used to break alot, and we all had power moves, sorry to use this as a comparison… But we all knew who was good by how a person presented themself and how they expressed themself… I have seen alot of Kung Fu, some bad, but some real good from all the major styles, so I think as a judge performance and expression is a better way to judge…

But I think form competition is a good thing, all things can be good or bad, but it makes u train harder, it makes your sifu happy, it makes your classmates excited, and it puts you under a bit of pressure and tests you a bit. So I hope people continue to compete in forms.

I just hope flash is not what our traditional forms turn into, so if you have any ideas that will work across the board, let me know and whoever else here talks with some tournament promoters… tell them, most are open to advice…

Its just a shame there are so many federations and people doing things seperate, or are against one another… because we all lose when this happens, divisions with 2-3 people, or worse only you, and you still do a form for your medal, ha ha ha

Regardless, everyone takes kung fu personally so we all should just be cool and look at the difference as a way to bring us together and not apart regardless of what happens…

I hope to meet more of you at some of these events, just come and say hi…

And Fupow, get ready for me in Seattle!!! I wanna hang out and do the town baby!!!

Joe