http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2005/03/07/1110160758932.html
I am not sure what the point of the article was, but thought it might be a good discussion point re. the historical aspects.
That’s a cool dead link. 
That is because a ninja wailed on his guitar then cut its head off. 
Can’t you see it? I will post the contents of the article.
Great leaping ninjas, gaijin are getting a grip on martial arts
By Deborah Cameron, Herald Correspondent, in Tokyo
Sydney Morning Herald, March 8 2005
There was a moment, just as the sword could have cleaved the skull, that time froze. The ninja master lowered his weapon.
Yes, it would cut, said Roy Ron, one of the highest ranking non-Japanese ninja in the world, who stopped the sword just in time. Although only a practice blade, lighter and duller than the real thing, the sword is part of a ninja martial arts tradition.
As a martial art, it became a household name because of movies and the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle craze of the 1990s. In reality it has a history that puts it among Japan’s most ancient traditions, dating from the samurai era.
Japanese legend tells of battles in which ninjas fought with sword, stave, bow and arrow, gun, concealed blade and vicious metal stars. They used paralysing body holds, bone-breaking throws and were so inventive and devious that, by using special shoes, they could walk on water.
Supernatural powers were said to have allowed them to peer into the eyes and see the soul, which petrified their enemy. They could also disappear, legend says.
Centuries later, during a Sunday morning training session in central Tokyo, the ninja arts still look ferocious and painful. There seem to be two possibilities for students: either be thrown or get caught in a painful hold that is released only after a frantic tap on the bamboo practice mat.
Remaining solely a martial art has helped the traditional hierarchy and mystery of ninja, say the purists. All the knowledge is passed down from the Grand Master, currently a Japanese teacher who this year celebrates 50 years of involvement, after inheriting the legend from his father.
Although his successor will be his son, the real heirs to the ninja tradition are very different, and not always Japanese.
Mr Ron, who also lectures in medieval history, says there are thousands more ninja practitioners outside Japan than inside the country. “Sadly, after WWII Japanese started disconnecting themselves from their own heritage and their own history,” he said. “We are hoping that when they see so many foreigners interested in Japanese traditions that they will be interested again.”
Gordon Simmonds and Robert Tierney, both of Brisbane, have hit the mat so hard and so often during visits to the ninja school in Tokyo that they’ve collapsed on to their futons at night, covered in bruises. Not that they complain.
“It began as self-defence but has ended up being a passion to be in command of my own body and be able to move it in certain ways,” said Mr Tierney, who runs a ninja school with Mr Simmonds in Brisbane.
Like thousands of other ninja disciples from around the world, they will attend a ninja convention in Japan in October. Both say that a big drawcard for enthusiasts is the promise of new techniques revealed by the Grand Master.
looks like ironfist works at a place that runs websense!
also known as “get to work you unproductive bas.tards!”
Okay article. Every martial artist has experienced what it means to train, that’s all this is about. Really just a plug for the Ninja school.
Or if you were looking for trolls:
[SIZE=3]Ninjas are so lame. They suck and thier art is made up and nobody really believes in ninjas. How stupid… Ashida Kim… astral spies… ninjas flip out and kill people…blah…blah…blah…[/SIZE]
I am not looking for trolls, just wanting to spark some discussion wrt the history of ninjutsu. In particular, there seems to be two main camps with one believing that ninjas were clans of spies/assassins and were mortal foes to the samurai, while the other following the theory that ninjas were samurai with special training. Given that this is a martial arts forum, I thought it would be nice to have a discussion about martial arts once in a while
Sorry, of course you’re right. I can just see the whole tirade coming and thought I’d kick things off.
I saw some guys practicing ninjutsu a few years ago in a local park. They were running an obstacle course they’d set up using playground equipment, big sandbags which they’d throw in the air and punch and kick before they fell, and trees, which they’d climb so fast it looked like they were running. They spent the entire thirty minutes or so I watched them with these exercises never once stopping for a break. Thier conditioning was admirable.
Now I can understand why folks scoff at Ashida Kim and so on, but I doubt most “real martial artists” could’ve kept up with the routine these guys were doing.
ninja were not samurai.
samurai was upper caste warriors of feudal japan.
ninjas were who they hired to carry out deeds that they could not because of their honour code. So if a samurai had to do something dishonourable, he could not and therefore would hire a ninja instead.
a ninja could be anyone. willing to do the job, generally, they would need a little skill if they were gonna take on assassination stuff. BUt, they were more like hired goons in western senses. “Honourable” was NOT part of their code… in fact, they didn’t have a code at all really and were not even close to samurai in status.
SJ: I once took a ninjutsu class with a friend of mine, and we did something similar to that, but not to that intensity. Yes, it was hard work. When it came to sparring they were no different to any other art though.
KL: I have to admit that when people talk about ninjas in battle I am dubious. From what I understand the ninja preferred stealth and only fought if cornered. The idea of a ninja battle seems contrary to the whole idea of the ninja.
The theory that the ninja were specially trained samurai also has some merit, however the supposed existence of ninja clans goes against this theory.
Anyone have any definitive evidence either way? Or is this another debate that will never be solved?
I don’t have any evidence, but I lean more toward the idea that ninjutsu was nothing more sophisticated or esoteric than guerilla warfare tactics. The Samurai had no code which would have prohibited the use of stealth and the same guys who did the soldiering by day did it at night as well.
I just hope Aishida Kim doesn’t show up to the gathering .
I think it Is possible that some ninja were Ronin, and others were spies and not affiliated with the samurai caste. why does it have to be either or?
I’m with Jack. From what I read and saw in the ninja section of the Tokyo Edomura museum which admittedly is a rather cheesy theme park reconstruction of a part of old Edo despite having some rather splendidly made buildings, they were largely guerillas.
The whole thing about samurai honour is that it could be made to agree with anything… it wasn’t all so dyed in the wool. There were plenty of samurai who thought the hagakure was nonsense, plenty of lazy and devious samurai, and plenty of thugs. Samurai could do anything they liked but public face was all-important.
The most important point about ninja is that they operated in secret (obvious but needs restating in context!). There were more techniques to run away and more techniques to hide than there were to fight, according to that museum. There was even (and this is my favourite) an explosive designed to kill the ninja and blow away his face in case he was going to get caught.
Almost certainly some ninja came from the samurai class, almost certainly some were just hired thugs, and almost certainly some were really really good well trained assassins and guerillas.
Interesting idea Starchaser, but it’s perhaps most unlikely that ninja included ronin. Ronin were masterless, and generally disgraced samurai, and generally would not have had the access to the kind of power needed to give orders, or to the training cults.
I’m at home. I just got “http://www.smh.com.au not found.” But I tried it again now and it works.
I know the difference between a websense block and a dead link. I also know how to bypass websense with google’s URL language translator
Am also agreeing. What most people are passing off as “ninjitsu” is not what it used to be, traditionally speeking. What it is now is either pure rubbish, Ninpo-based juijitsu, or a homebrew type thing made by someone who knew a fair bit of fighting technique and read too many trashy JMA articals as a kid.
Actually it’s a common belief that many samurai took sabbaticals to learn the arts of the so called ninja and to practice them for a time.
red-
It’s also a common belief that you are a midget with tendencies towards the taboo.
Can you indicate some reference material for that please?
thanks
Dude, to be a Samurai wasn’t just walking around in laquered armour lopping peoples heads off.
they had very strict codes of honour. They did not employ stealth or kill like that. They did it up front and in your face. It was absolutely necessary that you see exactly who it was that was sending you to the heavens or the hells.
there are literally reems and reems of documentation and information regarding the codes of the samurai, the courts who utilized them and even down to the names of each man, his deeds and where he stood in the overall order of things.
I can’t recall the name of the books offhand but I’ll get them for you. I just got done a month ago studying up on the Samurai for a personal project and that piece of information was indicated in more then one. The logic is sound, Samurai dedicated their lives to the art of war and often spent a lot of their time learning the arts of their potential enemies. Many samurai spent a lot of time going from school to school to learn different variations of an art and so on. It stands to reason that some of them would choose to learn the arts of the ninja.
One of those books went so far as to cite the first “ninja”, a story of two Samurai who snuck in to an enemies complex, but then made the fatal mistake of announcing their arrival.
As for codes and all that, “Strict” is pretty subjective. While most Samurai tried to live strictly by a code and there were tons of rules that they were supposed to live by, adherence to them wasn’t exactly strict or ubiquitous. It was however pretty common that Samurai considered it highly dishonorable to kill your opponent without warning. It however, was apparently ok to have your opponent kiled by assassins.
agreed, it was necessary for warriors to learn the warriors profession through the study of various ryu. They needed to know how to ride, how to be proficient at archery, how to be proficient with the swords the carried and how to fight without weapons. But the stealth stuff, I am not so sure about.
I would agree that perhaps in some areas it was a non-noble who was a martial arts master and as he was not bound by codes (being a commoner and all) he may be hired to both teach a samurai in whatever it was he specialized in, say Ninpo for example, or perhaps even swordplay, but ‘ninja’ arts is a misnomer outside of this very superficial context.
the ‘ninja’ were not formally organized in anyway, they were hired goons as I stated before and commoners who were subjects of the courts as opposed to the samurai who were integral parts of the courts, or in the case of Ronin, warriors who were looking for a court to serve.
The idea of ninjas being organized and practicing codified and structured ryu of martial arts is a little far fetched. BUt without a doubt there were commoners who had great skill and that may have at times been employed to carry out deeds for the nobility. Very much like Knights errant. But, sometimes a ninja could be defined as something as lowly as an informant who listens to conversations they shouldn’t and so on. and so, with only the skill to quitely creep up under a window and sit and listen, one could be defined as a ninja.