It’s surprising how similiar the Chinese wrestling and western wrestling are. It’s a simple “sticky” principle that you glue your body on your opponent’s body.
I don’t know where this thread will go. We can discuss the similiarity or difference between 2 arts. We can also discuss different ways to counter single leg. Any discussion will be welcome here.
What we would add to this is usually a “NAVY” or basically an arm trip in between the legs.
The reason I bring this up is because your talking about counters. Therefore, when I was watching the 1st video you put up with the SC players…I kept thinking right from the start of the vid if the guy with the single leg had just "Lowered his level " and got his hips down underneath his opponant…it’d be easier to take him down or just do a “High Crotch” , I used to love this move: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFadvGJq0nM
But I guess in SC…you don’t want to go down on your knees to pick someone up.
Anyway the guy just stayed back on his feet with his back bent over…this gives the defender TOO much space to use his legs as a lever.
The counter is alot different if a guy is able to get inside, lower his level and sink in really deep for the shot. Then, you start talking about cross facing and hipping down to make some room 1st.
In SC sport rule, if any 2 points of your body besides your feet touch the ground, you lose that round. If you go down on both knees, you just give your opponent a free round.
In ShanXi SC system, they have over 40 different ways to get your opponent’s leading leg. I have heard that someone published a SC book just talk about “40 different ways to do single leg” (may be more than 40).
Here is a clip of ShanXi SC single leg (at 1.50). Their system likes to use “single leg” more that other Chinese wrestling system.
[QUOTE=Shaolin;1228040]Not really. Look past the specific techniques and strip any art down to its core principles and concepts, and they’re all the same.[/QUOTE]
The reason I bring this up is because your talking about counters. Therefore, when I was watching the 1st video you put up with the SC players…I kept thinking right from the start of the vid if the guy with the single leg had just "Lowered his level " and got his hips down underneath his opponant…it’d be easier to take him down or just do a “High Crotch”
agree with you on that. The vid I watched from youknowwho does not take into consideration forward momentum. But circumstances don’t always dictate forward momentum, I understand this. difference in positioning.
[QUOTE=Dragonzbane76;1228169]The vid I watched from youknowwho does not take into consideration forward momentum. But circumstances don’t always dictate forward momentum, I understand this. difference in positioning.[/QUOTE]
To be able to use your forward movement to run your opponent down is always the highest level skill in all TCMA. Sometime if your opponent is about your level, you may not always have the opportunity to do it. If your opponent’s retreating footwork is as fast as your forward shooting, when you get there, his leg may not be there any more. The forward movement is a 2 edges sword. It sometime means “over commit”. You may let your opponent to lead you into the emptiness - kiss dirt.
The definition of “single leg” is to obtain your opponent’s leading leg. There are more than 20 different ways to do so. After you have obtained your opponent’s leading leg (such as ankle pick), if you can attack his back standing leg, he will be down. This way you are not over committed on your leading leg attack. IMO, it’s much safer this way.
I have never been a fan of the “he does this, you do this” methodology.
Fighting is far too fluid and chaotic.
The best way to counter any take down is to counter the ATTEMPT before it becomes a take down.
Once the opponent has a lock on your leg, then it is all based on what he does:
Does he drive?
Does he lift?
Does he do both?
Does he pull or push?
Does he swing around or step in to the angle?
Too many variables to say, “to this…”
So what do we do?
We drill and we adapt and when exposed to the MANY different ways, we learn how to react and how to counter.
I like to look at it more like “if he does this, I can do that”
“That” doesn’t have to be one option, but it can be. There are times when your choices are very limited and there are times when you have a lil more discretion as to how you react. It would be crazy to make any “one size fits all” statements though.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1228205]I have never been a fan of the “he does this, you do this” methodology.[/QUOTE]
TCMA is like to find the right key to open the right lock. There exist no master key. You can use a hammer to smash the lock (master key - general solution). That will solve problem but it takes a lot of force. If you find the right key, it will be effortless to open a lock.
The counter for hip throw is different from the counter for single leg which is also different from the counter for foot sweep. Of course if you move back and remain distance, you can prevent almost everything. When your opponent’s attack is too quick, your body and his body are already connected, the right counter will be the right solution.
For example, counter for
hip throw is to spin with your opponent and drag him down to the ground.
single leg is to press your opponent’s neck down and redirect his forward shooting into kissing dirt.
foot sweep is to pull your leg off and above your opponent’s sweeping leg. You then sweep his sweeping leg.
front cut to twist your body into a bow-arrow stance. You then attack his back standing leg.
…
Unfortunately counters for different throws are all different. There exist no common solution - master key. If you do … I’ll do … is a must and you just don’t have any choice.
Great Clip LaRoux
It illustrates dropping down
digging between face and body,
wrapping around the head,
joining the hands,
torquing the opponent down to the other side
…and then starting to fight again.
Yet, putting an elbow or forearm on that ‘dropping down’ to the neck or head of the opponent (as the guy in the video has to practically avoid doing) and dropping the guy like a sack of shyte in one move is so technically impossible as to be laughable…
[QUOTE=Syn7;1228209]I like to look at it more like “if he does this, I can do that”
“That” doesn’t have to be one option, but it can be. There are times when your choices are very limited and there are times when you have a lil more discretion as to how you react. It would be crazy to make any “one size fits all” statements though.[/QUOTE]
Try, 'I’m going to do this, so he’ll do ‘That’ and I’ll be set for it. Getting the opponent’s ‘that’ to be narrowed down is part of the puzzle. Strategy.
This, training attacking combinations that force an initial predictable response, which the combination is designed to capitalise upon, reduces your need to figure out what the other guy is going to do. Put the burden on him. If you’re good at it, he won’t have time, or a second chance.
Starting small, by stepping right or left, front or back, which requires an opponent to adjust can be the start, anything that causes the opponent to react to your actions, even without throwing any strikes, provides the opportunity to gain a small advantage, several small advantages build your case for turning to your attack. Space, terrain, allies, other threats or other resources, all count as well. Get him to ‘show’ before you do if its viable, and thats a tremendous advantage.
[QUOTE=Yum Cha;1228658]Try, 'I’m going to do this, so he’ll do ‘That’ and I’ll be set for it. Getting the opponent’s ‘that’ to be narrowed down is part of the puzzle. Strategy.
This, training attacking combinations that force an initial predictable response, which the combination is designed to capitalise upon, reduces your need to figure out what the other guy is going to do. Put the burden on him. If you’re good at it, he won’t have time, or a second chance.
Starting small, by stepping right or left, front or back, which requires an opponent to adjust can be the start, anything that causes the opponent to react to your actions, even without throwing any strikes, provides the opportunity to gain a small advantage, several small advantages build your case for turning to your attack. Space, terrain, allies, other threats or other resources, all count as well. Get him to ‘show’ before you do if its viable, and thats a tremendous advantage.[/QUOTE]
Word. That’s bjj 101. Infact that has been stressed to some degree at every style I’ve been involved with. Words to live by. Apply that to your daily life and you’re golden.
pain application is a person to person tolerance. Neck cranks and pain applications are things that some people can struggle through and others cannot. I’m always amazed that people in MA’s can say that they would do X and it will knock a person stupid. I’ve seen people get knocked almost out with a broken bone and split nose and still keep coming. The human body is more resilient than most give credit. IMO.
[QUOTE=IronWeasel;1228657]Is that crossface a legit head control move in a shuai chiao match?[/QUOTE]
That’s just a simple “head lock” and it’s perfect legal in SC match. If your opponent’s head is parallel to the ground, the reverse head lock (guillotine) will work better. If you also use your right leg to block your opponent’s right leg, and spin your body to your left, you can not only take him down, you can also put a lot of pressure on his neck.
If you move your right arm under your opponent’s left shoulder, over his back, and lock on your own left arm, you can “flip” your opponent’s body much easier because the rotation axis is much longer than the head lock or reverse head lock.
There are many counters for single leg. It all depends on where your opponent’s head position is. When you control your opponent’s head, his body will follow.
