sorry, omar,
Shuai jiao literally means “throwing horn”.
“throwing and falling”, how does jiao tranlate into falling?
My classmate had an interesting conversation with one of the OSU Shui Jiao people after class today. Turns out there’s two different ways of writing Shui Jiao. The old way has the charecter for horn in it, and the new way has a charecter that has to do with falling or something like that(I don’t think it translated directly to well).
woah. simultaneous posts.
In reference to yours, I should add that ‘contains the symbol for horn’ is signifigantly different from ‘is the symbol for horn’. It’s an interesting piece of etymology though.
Don’t forget that Shuai Jiao/Chiao very probably came from Mongolian Boke.
"Shuai Chiao is a Chinese martial art. Yes, I know it can be hard to believe. We don’t develop Chi, we’re not deadly to be in the ring, and we generally agree more with NHB and San Shou crowd than Kung Fu crowd, but we are a Chinese martial art. In fact, Shuai Chiao is a TRADITIONAL Chinese martial art.
Shuai Chiao may even be the oldest of the Chinese martial arts."
And before that was Shuai li. And before that Shuai Ti.~ Shuai Chiao was done wearing a helmet with a horn on it or some such. One would gorge the other with the horn still on the head.
This Ring type Sport was popular and also evolved. Its porgenator(s) and progeny were training resources for military/ royal bodyguard types.
“In conclusion, Shuai Chiao is a Chinese Martial art, a form of Kung Fu and not an Other Related Art.”
Shuai Chiao is a Martial sport of China. Mongolia is reknown for wrestlers. it is my whatever that Northern Chinese Might have picked-up this cultural habit as a regional thing and it was thought of as nifty. and became popular. It might actually be Mongolian. And if it is Chinese it is art only in as much as a good Boxing (Gentlemanly~ Art) combination at the right moment is a thing of Beauty to behold. As Shuai Chiao is perfoofmed in a limited space–ring-of sorts. Therefore a Sport. Kun-Fu is Not a Sport. Therefore Shuai Chiao is Not Kung-Fu. With that fits validly and soundly the category of Other Related…As the website is KUNG-FU/QIGONG…[looking], [looking], [looking…]. Nope, (in the title) no sight of Shuai Chiao nor CHINese SPORT.
Whatever it was called at various stages throws were used. It was used in battle but was also entertainment. I have to think that a battle tactic that was also a Sport was using the sport to help train the battle tactic. And that soldiers would tweak it some or practice particular aspect or something. But It is it’s own thing Not a kung-fu, yet Kung-Fu?
It’s a sport. Putting into Others related… seems not off.
[SIZE=3]omarthefish[/SIZE]
Suggestion: as English does not have a single name for wrestling(in America has seizing and controling and throws) with punching(extensive) and kicking (extensive) perhaps it could be merely called Shuai Chiao.
Shuai Chiao stops, when other than the feet touch the ground (if that’s true) then it’s standing something or other.
Writing these last few bits I thought it as Wrestle-Street…[SIZE=3]Standing Wrestle-Street-fighting[/SIZE].
Hand on the ground.
Here are the problems I see with that point of view:
1.Nearly every MA in China has a SOME kind of tradition of formal challenge matches like the Leitai or pushhands competitions. So, if competition inside a ring makes it sport instead of gong-fu, then you better put ALL the threads into the ‘other’ forum.
2.Gross misuse of the word art. Grab a websters. ‘Art’ can also simply refer to skill or technique. In Chinese, the confusion dissappears completely as the ‘shu’ of ‘wushu’ clearly means ‘skill or technique’. To make a comparision:
wushu — martial arts
MEIshu — fine arts (oil painting, calligraphy etc.)
one is the techniques/skill of war
the other is the techniques/skill of art
seizing and controling : chin na
punching : da
kicking : ti
>Writing these last few bits I thought it as Wrestle-Street…Standing Wrestle-Street-fighting.
Hand on the ground.
Yeah…that’ll work in conversation. I’m not trying to say it’s the same thing as greco roman. Chinese wrestling just followed a slightly different evolutionary path.
“1.Nearly every MA in China has a SOME kind of tradition of formal challenge matches like the Leitai or pushhands competitions. So, if competition inside a ring makes it sport instead of gong-fu, then you better put ALL the threads into the ‘other’ forum.”
Formal challenges are practices Of, not how they are practiced.
Theoretically, one does not need a leitai to practice Kung-Fu. Hence the great absence of leitai in many Kwoons.
For a bunch of people who study fighting, you are awfully attached to words and labels.
Originally posted by omarthefish
[B]
Sorry WanderingMonk,
Shai jiao literally means “throwing foot”, at least according to the 2000 printing of the Xinhua dictionary published in Beijing and used as the standard by most students from middle school through college.
I know your thinking of the story that Shuaijiao evolved out of some sort of ritualized combat where the combatants dress up with animal horns. However, the character for horn (3rd tone) and the one used for shuaijiao (1st tone) are different. The origin story may be true but the word “shuaijiao” does not reflect this.
[/B]
okay, I see your Xinhua dictionary published in 2000. I’ll raise you with the Far East English Chinese Dictionary published in Taipei, Taiwan in 1975. This was the authoritative dictionary used by majority chinese in Taiwan back then.
The entry for Wrestling is translated into chinese as “jiao li” (literally “horn strength”). The chinese character for “horn” (jiao) is used. Since Taiwan use the old traditional script and didn’t have a “cultural revolution”, I believe “throwing horn” is the more traditional translation.
You can do a search on google for “shuai jiao” in traditional chinese and you will find sites which write “shuai jiao” as “throwing horn”
(http://www.lab.mlc.edu.tw/~mlact/200303/law/008.shtml
http://www.google.com/search?q=摔角&hl=zh-TW&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&start=20&sa=N)
correction: after some more research, the “throwing horn” as “chinese wrestling” was adopted in the early republican days. I had over-stated how long this term was used. I now stand corrected. In the qing dynasty time, the term “pu hu” (“pouncing tiger”) was used to destinate the art of wrestling.
wm
Originally posted by No_Know
[B]"Shuai Chiao is a Chinese martial art. Yes, I know it can be hard to believe. We don’t develop Chi, we’re not deadly to be in the ring, and we generally agree more with NHB and San Shou crowd than Kung Fu crowd, but we are a Chinese martial art. In fact, Shuai Chiao is a TRADITIONAL Chinese martial art.
Shuai Chiao may even be the oldest of the Chinese martial arts."
And before that was Shuai li. And before that Shuai Ti.~ Shuai Chiao was done wearing a helmet with a horn on it or some such. One would gorge the other with the horn still on the head.
This Ring type Sport was popular and also evolved. Its porgenator(s) and progeny were training resources for military/ royal bodyguard types.
“In conclusion, Shuai Chiao is a Chinese Martial art, a form of Kung Fu and not an Other Related Art.”
Shuai Chiao is a Martial sport of China. Mongolia is reknown for wrestlers. it is my whatever that Northern Chinese Might have picked-up this cultural habit as a regional thing and it was thought of as nifty. and became popular. It might actually be Mongolian. And if it is Chinese it is art only in as much as a good Boxing (Gentlemanly~ Art) combination at the right moment is a thing of Beauty to behold. As Shuai Chiao is perfoofmed in a limited space–ring-of sorts. Therefore a Sport. Kun-Fu is Not a Sport. Therefore Shuai Chiao is Not Kung-Fu. With that fits validly and soundly the category of Other Related…As the website is KUNG-FU/QIGONG…[looking], [looking], [looking…]. Nope, (in the title) no sight of Shuai Chiao nor CHINese SPORT.
Whatever it was called at various stages throws were used. It was used in battle but was also entertainment. I have to think that a battle tactic that was also a Sport was using the sport to help train the battle tactic. And that soldiers would tweak it some or practice particular aspect or something. But It is it’s own thing Not a kung-fu, yet Kung-Fu?
It’s a sport. Putting into Others related… seems not off.
[SIZE=3]omarthefish[/SIZE]
Suggestion: as English does not have a single name for wrestling(in America has seizing and controling and throws) with punching(extensive) and kicking (extensive) perhaps it could be merely called Shuai Chiao.
Shuai Chiao stops, when other than the feet touch the ground (if that’s true) then it’s standing something or other.
Writing these last few bits I thought it as Wrestle-Street…[SIZE=3]Standing Wrestle-Street-fighting[/SIZE].
Hand on the ground. [/B]
Wrestling mats and a set sized ring aren’t needed to practice shuai jiao. A jacket isn’t needed to practice it. Rules and conduct when fighting aren’t part of the shuai jiao curriculum. True, modifications can be added to make it competition friendly, but it is a martial art, not a martial sport.
Shuai jiao does not stop when the opponent touches the ground. This is a modification added for competition.
Truly, when you are standing and your opponent is on the ground, this is the ultimate advantage. Shuai jiao then seeks to further incapicitate the opponent to make sure he doesn’t gain his feet. There is no backing off to allow him recovery.
Addressing the etymology, shuai jiao is indeed a ‘kung fu’, or skill attained through investment of time and effort. why wouldn’t it be?
Shuai jiao is contained, in bits and pieces, in every style of kung fu. How can you say it is not kung fu when trained as a system in its entirety?
Shuai jiao certainly has the same aspects as all other kung fu styles; striking, kicking, locking, grappling, blocking, redirecting, trapping, bridging, etc.
Shuai jiao certainly has the same training methodologies as all other kung fu styles; stances, hard qigong sets (dyanmic tension sets), drills, forms, sparring.
Stop quibiling over the terms. Shui Chiao, no matter how you spell it, is Chinese wrestling.
The thought isn’t that CMA is all about striking, the thought is that CMA has no substantial groundwork.
This is also not true. Our ground work is just not a humane snuggle till someone taps sort of thing, it’s a viciously brutal ground and pound sort of thing that is geared so the one in the dominant position can brutally cripple the one in the inferior position as fast as possible wile still being able to bounce back to his feet with minimal time and effort to deal with multiple attackers.
Ground work does not nessasarily mean some sort of submission rolling with both people on the ground. There are also many ground based striking systems where one is down, and the other almost on his feet, or close to it too Yah know! 
if you are in a standing position and kicking or knee dropping an downed opponent, that is not groundwork, as you are not on the ground. It’s called groun work because you’re working from the ground. Now in the instance that you are close to the ground, that could count as ground work - but even that doesn’t seem to be taught in all systems, which goes back to what I was saying about a lack of ground work…
If one guy is on the ground, and punishment is being applied, it’s a ground fight.
touche Wandering Monk . . .
However,
I did a bunch of searches using the Hong Kong and Taiwan search engines, sina.com.hk and sina.com.tw and came up with all these for Taiwan:
http://google.sina.com.tw/cgi-bin/webpage_full.cgi?word=ˤõÓ
Notice, even in Taiwan there are plenty of people using the characters I described, ˤõÓ¡£ £¨I don’t know if the font show up on this board)
To your credit though I got similar responese searching ˤ½Ç¡£
http://google.sina.com.tw/cgi-bin/webpage_full.cgi?utf8=1&word=摔角&lr=
Notice, though, that all the sites uniformly use “wrestling” as the English translation.
Royal Dragon,
That was my original point. I thought I could use the language to drive the point home but WanderingMonk had to come in here and throw a wrench in the works showing me some folks use a different term.
Neigung,
I have nothing to add. Good rebuttal.
Yenhoi,
This thread is all about labels. Way back on page 1, I seem to remember the original topic was about how ‘Shuai Jiao’ should be here in the gong-fu forum, not over in the ‘other arts’ area. It never was a discussion about how to train or ‘x’ technque. I think this discussion (for better or worse) is about how to label Shuai Jiao. I just thought it touched on 2 slightly more interesting topics.
Now if the thread STARTED with talk about techniques, this would be distracting but . . .
oh well, the fonts didn’t work so the links came out gobbledy gook. If you can type Chinese, Monk, try the searches yourself. If not . . . HA! I look upon your linguistic challenge with scorn and pity!!! 
Originally posted by Royal Dragon
If one guy is on the ground, and punishment is being applied, it’s a ground fight.
I disagee. it’s a multi level fight. tactics you use there will be different from a ground fight.
This is also not true. Our ground work is just not a humane snuggle till someone taps sort of thing, it’s a viciously brutal ground and pound sort of thing that is geared so the one in the dominant position can brutally cripple the one in the inferior position as fast as possible wile still being able to bounce back to his feet with minimal time and effort to deal with multiple attackers.
Hi RD! You’re being boring again!
Your just saying that becasue your not Brutal!
:eek:
“Wrestling mats and a set sized ring…”
You added to what I put, thereby making it Not what I put.
The ring is not sized necessarily but you indicate that there is a ring, which Is what I put.
[SIZE=3]I[/SIZE] don’t even practice on mats. Mats to me are relatively new-ish. Shuai Chiao I would think to be older than mats (used in training–find soft ground or make it softer, but don’t make portable ground…it seems impractical since I’m likely to be actually using ground and won’t be able to pull my mats out nor along to land-on when I get jumped.
Words and more words. If one image is worth a thousand words then a movie is indescribable in a Human’s natural lifetime, practically.
You understand what you understand. I also. If you are wrong~ I cannot point that out to you with words necessarily. And when you and I or whomever and whomever are done success at having you say I’m correct is faiure at living perhaps. My point or winning you over or saying a good definition might not should be the defining moment of my Life at any moment.
We talk from hearsay. Accepted hearsay perhaps. But if we were not there we theoretically do not actually Know. This stuff from a while ago.
If I can think of how others got it wrong or did bad or worse. I can take that and get to perhaps do better, I like that–hearsay/h er/is tory with a gran of salt.
However, if life Is what we make of it. Pick Good hearsay to believe and Know that you are right and be happy.
“Truly, when you are standing and your opponent is on the ground, this is the ultimate advantage.”
For the person on the ground, because you have to come to me and are more likely off balance or have your vital weight support where I can easily access it. (Not what you meant I think)
“Shuai jiao is contained, in bits and pieces, in every style of kung fu. How can you say it is not kung fu when trained as a system in its entirety?”
You ask me? But I did not say that at all. I would think. But you do, when you say Kung-Fus contain It you seperate it from Kung-Fu.
However, relevantly it seems fairly inclusive.