****, I can’t find the page now but I did a search yesterday on google regarding kung fu history and india. It said that there was martial arts in china well before the indian monks brought kung fu to the shaolin temple. I don’t remember the details but it something about greek pankration being an influence on chinese martials arts well before shaolin kung fu was created.
I’ll post a link when I find it… searching through my browser’s history now because I can’t get it to come up on google.
SC HIstory
Orginally Chiao-Ti (horn locking) utill the name Shuai Chiao or Swai Jiao being agreed on by the 1928 National Koushu Committee in Nanking. I believe
Personnally, I think the Pankration thing is a bit of a stretch on thier part.
I don’t see how its anymore of a stretch than the supposed histories given by “ancient” asian systems for their forms, backgrounds, and timelines.
Every culture this side of a fat ladies arse has had its share of dangerous people. Unless you own a H.G. Wells time machine the best we can all do is make our educated guesses and play games of ego academia.
It all started when the first caveman picked up a rock and smashed the other gents grapes in for squeezing his juicebox.
btw- If you do own a time machine, sign me up for the expedition as I am itching to kick a morlock in the throat.
Watch it BJ, the morlocks were the good guys.
LOL!
You may be on to something. The Eloi do look a bit like the French.
Originally posted by Black Jack
Every culture this side of a fat ladies arse has had its share of dangerous people.
Yeah, what about the other side of a fat lady’s arse?! HUH? Totalitarialitittieantinationanalistarianis…t, er. bitch.
The morlocks (people like us BJ) worked and kept things running, the Eloi (liberal Democrats and Canadians) were just food. Interesting twist Wells put in.
This is quite an educational board. I never realized that supporting a workers revolution against the idle rich made one a conservative republican before. I always had the idea that was a rather communistic POV.
Originally posted by Ralphie
My biggest beef with both traditional and modern/sports guys on this board is this belief that cma is a striking art only. At the core of most good fighting that I’ve seen, weather bjj, judo, cma, boxing etc. the general idea is to uproot (make unbalanced) your opponent, then attack/finish. In other words, gain position, then apply your technique.
The thought isn’t that CMA is all about striking, the thought is that CMA has no substantial groundwork.
Originally posted by Royal Dragon
[B]
Huang ti (Yellow Emperor 27th century B.C, http://www.mystae.com/streams/ufos/emperor.html )
It is said during the reing of Hung Ti, organised combat in the form of “Horn” locking was practiced. This is the forebearer of Chinese Wrestling or Shui Chaio.
That all being said, Shui Chiao is arguably the OLDEST martial art in existence, short of maybe Greaco Roman wrestling. [/B]
As far as the caveman thing earlier is this post, I wouldn’t qualify that as martial arts. As far as SC being the oldest, there is plenty of evidence of ma in africa well before 27 BC
Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Personnally, I think the Pankration thing is a bit of a stretch on thier part.
why would that seem like such a stretch?
Welles was in fact a fabian. Upper-class fore-runner to the labor movement. AKA Socialism or Solidarity. Not quite a Commy but leaning that way on.
The Morloks were the English working class. The Eloi were the Upper class. At the time there as not a significant middle class. Can’t really compare to modern America with it’s ever expanding middle class and working poor.
Actually, the real middle class in America has been shrinking steadily since the 80s.
The stretch isn’t that pankraton existed way back then. The stretch is that there is any kind of continuity that can be traced from then until now.
Re: How close is todays shuai jiao to the 2000 years ago version…
Probably about the same as todays wrestling with ancient wrestling. ‘Shuai Jiao’ is actually just the Chinese name for wrestling. I am aware that ‘shuai jiao’ is mainly about throws and ‘wrestling’ is mainly about ground work but there IS no other word for wrestling in Chinese. ‘Shuai jiao’ literally translated means “throwing and falling”. I bought a book once in China about western style wrestling. Do you know what they called it? “Ancient Wrestling Fundamentals”. (Gudian Shuaijiao) There’s Mongolian Shuai Jiao and Hebei? (I forget the main styles in China) Modern wrestlers talk about Russian wrestling vs. Turkish vs. American. They’re all about the same. Just different styles. (in the non-MA dictionary regular folks common usage sense of the word)
Olympic style wrestling is called Gudian (ancient) Shuaijiao. Japanese styles have their own names because the Japanese characters can be read in Chinese. eg. Judo. In Chinese, it’s Roudao. Jujitsu? Roushu.
sorry, omar,
Shuai jiao literally means “throwing horn”.
“throwing and falling”, how does jiao tranlate into falling? 
wm
Omar, whenever you hear the term Shuai Chiao in the U.S., it’s usually Bao Ding Kuai Chiao or Chan Chiao that’s being referred to.
When a art says.. it incorportes Shuai Chiao.. It may mean.. I know a couple of throws.. so I can say I teach that.. but far from that.. If you know a couple of throws and locks.. does that really mean you know Shuai Chiao.. I will give you a for instance…
My belting test.. I had to do:
1)demostrate with knowledge 80 throws.
2) survive 30 rounds of wrestling with changing out with fresh people
3) do 15 3 min. rounds of full contact with kick punch lock throw…
4) demonstrate 30 kick punch lock throw combinations
5) demonstrate 30 kick punch lock combinations with only control of the opponent
6) make up your own Shuai Chiao form with only Shuai Chiao techiques.. (diag strike, march kick, throws, and so…)
7) past present and future of Shuai Chiao (essay)
8) my person growth of Shuai Chiao (essay)
9) what you can bring to Shuai Chiao (essay)..
So if you term Shuai Chaio as only wrestling.. then your only getting a fraction of the picture.. Yes it does encompass a lot of throws.. but is that before or after you recieve the strikes and kicks with locks??
Maybe that should be the motto:
Throw them on their head.. then kick some sense into them..
But then again I am kinda biased
Great Post! Any chance you could share a couple of those combos?
Originally posted by WanderingMonk
[B]sorry, omar,
Shuai jiao literally means “throwing horn”.
“throwing and falling”, how does jiao tranlate into falling?
wm [/B]
Sorry WanderingMonk,
Shai jiao literally means “throwing foot”, at least according to the 2000 printing of the Xinhua dictionary published in Beijing and used as the standard by most students from middle school through college.
I know your thinking of the story that Shuaijiao evolved out of some sort of ritualized combat where the combatants dress up with animal horns. However, the character for horn (3rd tone) and the one used for shuaijiao (1st tone) are different. The origin story may be true but the word “shuaijiao” does not reflect this.
Water Dragon,
Thanks for the clarification.
GGL,
Sorry to step on your toes. I understand the difference between ‘shuai jiao’ the term in Chinese and ‘shuai jiao’ as a style of combat. I would answer your post by saying that when you say only wrestling, perhaps you are getting a limited picture too. I’ve seen it in context. I would argue just that in some parts of the world they expect you to throw some strikes to set up your throws when you are wrestling. Perhaps you could tell me what term I could use to refer to wrestling in Chinese? I’m not aware of another term. It seems to me that the best solution is to either (from a Chinese perspective) to refer to wrestling as “Western Shuai Jiao” or (from a western perspective) to refer to Shuai Jiao as “Chinese Wrestling”.
Don’t take it as a slant against your art. It’s just a linguistic problem and untill someone suggests a better translation, I’m sticking with mine.