I practice kung fu and I’m very interested in studying BJJ simultaneously with kung fu. I started thinking about how BJJ originated and thought of this question. Does jiujitsu originate from Shuai Chiao? I know that BJJ evolved from classical JJ by the Gracie family. But does shuai chiao employ ground fighting after the throw or shoot in a similar way as BJJ?
Does jiujitsu originate from Shuai Chiao?
That is a popular belief but historical evidence suggests the answer is “no”.
But does shuai chiao employ ground fighting after the throw…?
No.
…or shoot in a similar way as BJJ?
No.
Does Japanese
- Language originate from Chinese language?
- Clothes originate from Chinese clothes?
- Custom originate from Chinese custom?
- Bonsaii originate from Chinese Bonsai (in Chinese it translated as pot plant)?
That is a popular belief but historical evidence suggests the answer is “no”.
Does most American originate from England?
That is a popular belief but historical evidence suggests the answer is “no”.
I don’t train Jujitsu OR Shuaijiao and have no particular allegience to either side of this argument. This is what I have observed in the MANY times the topic has come up in the past:
-Shuai Jiao clearly predates Jujitsu.
but
-The Japanese keep better records than the Chinese and there is lots of documentation of Jujistsu schools going back pretty **** far. Sumo seems like a more likely candidate for early Jujitsu techniques along with other likely Japanese wrestling traditions I don’t know about as I am not a student of Japanese history.
There is no reason to believe that the Japanese had to have learned it from China. There are Shuai Jiao type traditions that have sprung up in virtually every culture in every country on every continent in the entire world. I don’t see what the big deal is. I can certainly see that Shuai Jiao must have had an influence on Japanese Jujitsu as shown by some of the Chinese sources claiming ancestry. But all I see is influence.
- Language originate from Chinese language?
Written language, yes. Spoken? Probably not, except in that they are both in the same linguistic family but the relationship between Japanese and Chinese is less like Frecnch and Latin and more like French and Spainish IF that. The Japanese grammar is completely different from Chinese. It looks to me like only the characters came from China.
- Clothes originate from Chinese clothes?
Much of them. But I doubt that the Japanese would have gone naked if not for the Chinese. Traditional Japanese stuff always looks like Han dynasty to me. People say the culture comes from Tang but it looks more like Han IMO. I think the Korean traditional attire is what looks like Tang dynasty actually.
- Custom originate from Chinese custom?
Some, probably. All, not likely.
- Bonsaii originate from Chinese Bonsai (in Chinese it translated as pot plant)?
Never heard of this connection before. I am inclined to see it as something not particularly Japanese OR Chinese, just like wrestling and throwing people. I have never been able to understand the urge to try and prove Jujitsu comes from Shuai Jiao. It just doesn’t make sense to me.
I am not going to argue the point here as I am sure someone else with all the historical references will show up soon enough. I’m just summarizing what I have seen presented in a half dozen other threads on this topic over the past couple years.
Does this picture look exactly like the current Japanese Sumo? It was found on a piece of antique from a ancient Chinese tomb in Hobei province that can be traced back to 208 BC. Is this just coincident or some Japanese Sumo master went to China and taught Chinese Sumo 208 BC?
Please look at the similiar hair style and Sumo diaper. Coincident?
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/609/scancient9ud.jpg
If Chinese language can “influence” Japanese language then how much “influence” do Japanese need from China in other areas? If Japanese inherited Chinese language then Japanese inherited Chinese culture along with CMA knowledge. If you understand English then you can read Romeo and Juliet, so that develop you to be a “play writer”. Could you say that your play writting has nothing to do with England?
I come from a Gong Fu school that is heavy in Shuai Jiao and Chin’na material. We even include ground fighting.
Shortly before I left from China I told Master Chau that I was planning on visiting Nei Mongu. When I said that he said I should also try and visit Heilongjiang as that is where our martial art came from. He proceeded to say that the wrestling component of our curriculum was to a large extent influenced by the mongolian cultural influence in North-western Heilongjiang.
I don’t know diddly squat about the history of JJJ and won’t make spurious claims like YKW often does but there are a few Chinese arts with a ground game. That being said they are the exception and not the norm so if you want to augment your Gong Fu with BJJ go nuts!
80-90% of BJJ is groundfighting.
Shuai Chiao has no groundfighting.
Therefore, regardless of the origins of classical jujutsu, 80-90% of BJJ has no relation to Shuai Chiao.
Who is really to know what happened 2000 years ago? As per shuai jiao’s age.
As far as the interplay between cultures it depends on who’s “evidence” you accept. There is evidence and thought that most of what is traditional japanese culture , clothing , writing, language etc. IS Tang dynasty chinese.
Shuai Chaio on BBJ
Check out my cover story in our Jan Feb 2006 issue - noted Shuai Chiao master David Charng addresses both the Chinese/Japanese connection and BJJ. Our cover stories are free access on www.KungFuMagazine.com.
Uhhh…
Last I knew, Japanese was a COMPLETELY different language than Chinese - the spoken languages bear just about no relation to each other. I was under the impression Japanese was, in fact not related to any known language on the Asian continent and linguists are a bit curious about where exactly, it came from…
Of course, I could be wrong here, but that’s what I seem to recall.
The writing is and many of the words are aberrant.
Japanese language contains two parts, The tradition Chinese and the modern Japanese. All modern Japanese characters are taking the traditional Chinese characters aparts.
you got balls.
I thought it had something to do with their Meiji “restoration”. Their household register started naming these families without clan names after where they lived. good thing you got real gong-fu skills and this place is not packed with Japaneses.
For historical accuracy, Japanese Imperial Army did run a particular eugenic experiment in Northeast china to improve Japanese genetic stock. In that case, this joke isn’t as off-color as it appears.
Do you know how offensive that whole commentary was? If you said that in my presence I’d smack you one upside the earhole for being such a d!ck. Sadly I can not so I’ll simply say to you that comments such as the above are not appropriate in the slightest, you ass.
:eek:
bloody marvelous.
:eek:
The writing is and many of the words are aberrant.
Yes. The writing is. I think every 10 year old on the planet knows that the Japanese use Chinese characters.
Germans use a modified roman alphabet, but that doesn’t make the language related to Latin.
My point is that the Japanese language - not how it’s represented on paper - is NOT/NOT related to Chinese linguistically. There might be some words sprinkled in here and there, but the same holds true of any language.
Japanese women always carry a pillow on their back. When they had sex with their Japanese men and got their baby. Depending on where they did their screwing around, they named their bady such as:
Ban this ****er. I don’t think I’ve ever said that before. Appalling.
That all being said…
Ninja, not that it matters, but what style are you currently studying?
If you would like to attend a Shuai Jiao class, the information for classes in New York are at:
feel free to email or call us…
Best,
SD
sumo was indeed influenced by shuai chiao. But records do not trace jujutsu stemming from sumo, AFAIK.