Should you sign a contract for instruction?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
41

[QUOTE=MartialDev;758744]This is a very interesting discussion. I’ve never heard such a level of entitlement expressed by math instructors, English instructors, etc.

I can just imagine a Physics professor berating me after I decided to drop his class: Guess he wasn’t man enough for thermodynamics. LOL.[/QUOTE]

college teachers and professors draw a salary irregardless of student drops…they aren’t the owners of the college…apples and oranges.

and where do you get ‘entitlement’ in this discussion? all I’m asking is that people who come to class, pay for class. if there is a drop, I pretty much can figure out why and if it’s lazyness (physical or mental) then so be it but I’m not going to pat someone on the back but so much for quitting.

42

I’d charge more and get some contracts. :stuck_out_tongue:

If, in the end, the constant stress of trying to run a school like your are is getting to you, it would be better to move to a more business format.

I’ve know people who have quit teaching for the bitterness of running a “buddy” school.

All you really need to teach is some students and space. You could do that in a park for free, but by charging money you are able to offer a better learning environment. So by charging more you should end up with a better facility.

If you think it wouldn’t work in your neck of the woods, is there an ATA in your town? then it’ll work. :stuck_out_tongue:

43

A friend of mine who runs a dojo uses a contract and automatic withdrawal. The contract helps him keep a steady income especially during the down months of summer. The one thing he won’t do is keep someone in the contract if they have a good reason for leaving but they have to ask him about it. If someone just drops out without talking with him he considers them still attending and so they get billed.
Seemed fair to me.

44

[QUOTE=SanHeChuan;758746]I’d charge more and get some contracts. :stuck_out_tongue:

I charge $85 a month. The two closest schools charge $85 and $89. I’ve thought about going to $90 July 1 but if gas prices and food prices keep rising, and my competitors stay the same, I’ll probably just need to stay where I am.

If, in the end, the constant stress of trying to run a school like your are is getting to you, it would be better to move to a more business format.

that’s what I’m doing…slowly, granted, but still moving that way.

I’ve know people who have quit teaching for the bitterness of running a “buddy” school.

All you really need to teach is some students and space. You could do that in a park for free, but by charging money you are able to offer a better learning environment. So by charging more you should end up with a better facility.

If you think it wouldn’t work in your neck of the woods, is there an ATA in your town? then it’ll work. :p[/QUOTE]

there are 4…maybe 5 ATA or ITF schools within 5 miles. part of the problem is the density of ma schools in this town…there are 14, including me, within a 3 mile radius of the center of town. if you go out to 10 miles then you can add another 8-10 schools…you can only cut so many slices out of the same pie and everyone be sated…ok, i’m really tossing out some crappy metaphors…time to go to bed.

45

Boy, I still remember the good old days when rents were cheap and all karate schools were side jobs for the owners. I remember working for the same company as one of my sensei.

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[QUOTE=Oso;758734]but, you don’t know. your hypothisizing when you aren’t running a school…unless you are and I’ve missed it along the way.
when a student bails I pretty much know the reason…and generally, I try to give them much more face than I get in return.

if they bail because they don’t like what I’m doing or how I’m teaching, I try to follow up to see if I can help them find a place that fits them…but those are rare That’s not a comment on my ability, just that, at least IME, people tend to bail because:

#1 really learning a martial skill is harder than the fantasy.
dealing with people who are finding themselves threatened by newer students with more base attributes who catch on quicker. I hate trying to play ‘guan
#2 Ego. I’ve seen this manifest itself in many, many ways. Lately I’ve been psychoanalyst’ when all I want to say is ‘suck it up, train as hard as you can and be happy for your successes and don’t judge yourself by anyone else’s accomplishments’[/QUOTE]
I was not talking about leaving for good. I was talking about students who come back after leaving for a few months or so.
[QUOTE=Oso;758734]yea, but in my case I have a number of people who don’t get that when it’s the ‘1st’ of the month, it’s time to pay for the classes they come to or bring their kids too.

I’ve got a ***** of a situation with a parent…he’s been 5-10 days late with tuition for over 6 months now…i feel like I’ve got to tell him that Johnny can’t come to class till he gets the tuition, and late fees, caught up. I hate it for the kid but I’ve done everything but beat this guy in the head with a stick. the last two months, he’s not returned calls or anything.[/QUOTE]
I hear you. I realize that teachers with schools as their primary source of income need to put food on the table. I also realize, that like anyone else, they have the right to do well for themselves. However, like anyone else, there are greedy ones. I’ve seen mcdojos use contracts to rip people off. I’m not saying everyone who uses contracts is ripping people off. What I am saying is that I’ve seen contracts used to rip people off.

47

Boy, I still remember the good old days when rents were cheap and all karate schools were side jobs for the owners. I remember working for the same company as one of my sensei.

heh, rent ain’t cheap…though it’s still a side job.

[QUOTE=The Xia;758798]I was not talking about leaving for good. I was talking about students who come back after leaving for a few months or so.

I rarely hear of anyone doing this and actually returning.

I hear you. I realize that teachers with schools as their primary source of income need to put food on the table. I also realize, that like anyone else, they have the right to do well for themselves. However, like anyone else, there are greedy ones. I’ve seen mcdojos use contracts to rip people off. I’m not saying everyone who uses contracts is ripping people off. What I am saying is that I’ve seen contracts used to rip people off.[/QUOTE]

well, that’s pretty much a foregone conclusion in this, what eleventy-eleventh, thread on the subject?

48

[QUOTE=SanHeChuan;758652]
Personally I’ve never had a problem with a contract. As an idealist I may be against them but on a practical level, you got to do what you got to do. Right now I’m on a 3 Three 3 year contract! :eek:[/QUOTE]
If my sifu were to give out one of those, you’d not only get a nice price break, but his full confidence in you making black belt. You can tell what Sifu is thinking about your staying power by the contract he offers you. one year is standard. 6 month is for those who have been around awhile, but not the most religious about showing up. 3 moth is for new students and kids who’s parents aren’t all that good at paying reliably.

I’m 99.9 certain my contract ran out last month, but sifu has not offered me another. I am to ranck test this month no mater what… I can see the writing on the wall and so can he. He thinks I’m going to quit 'cause I’m not making progress, and is hopping if I pass this test, I’ll stay and if I don’t pass, well…

49

[QUOTE=Oso;758741]right…but, at the moment, I can’t even get that done because the fees would take me even more below breaking even…a lot of people are late but I usually collect everything by the 10th and repay myself for whatever I’ve put in out of pocket.[/QUOTE]

AAC has very reasonable fees for billing and no start up costs. $2 dollars for monthly statements and 50 to 25 cents for credit card or direct withdrawal though your bank account. They will provide you with contracts and billing agreements too.
Life has been much easier at my school with them. We spend more time teaching and don’t have to fuss with collecting money.

http://www.affiliated.org/

50

Your contracts are weak. In order to study with Ashida Kim, I had to sign over all of my personal freedoms.

It was well worth it, and i demand it of all my acolytes.

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[QUOTE=Indestructible;759030]AAC has very reasonable fees for billing and no start up costs. $2 dollars for monthly statements and 50 to 25 cents for credit card or direct withdrawal though your bank account. They will provide you with contracts and billing agreements too.
Life has been much easier at my school with them. We spend more time teaching and don’t have to fuss with collecting money.

http://www.affiliated.org/[/QUOTE]

yea, I know…they are probably who I’ll go with when the time comes…but, even though they are fairly cheap…tis that close a thing. :o

52

[QUOTE=Oso;758839]I rarely hear of anyone doing this and actually returning.[/QUOTE]
Personally, I’ve seen it quite a few times.
[QUOTE=Oso;758839]well, that’s pretty much a foregone conclusion in this, what eleventy-eleventh, thread on the subject?[/QUOTE]
What would the forum be left with if we can’t discuss the same subject repeatedly? :stuck_out_tongue:

53

Wow.

i have to agree with Sifu Ross and Oso. I have known too many people in MA and other service based businesses complain about the same thing. MA is not an icecream shop. You can eat at the shop every friday with your family and then stop for two months then come back. This is not the same for MA. The skills you learn this month are the base of what you learn the next month. Having big gaps in your training does not help. Plus, it is annoying to the teacher. The student often comes back thinking he can start where he left off 6 months ago, even though he has not been training.

Having by month payments is a headache, but many schools offer it. People always pay late. The bills do not wait for these payments. It isn’t easy to simplely say “You can’t come back until your tuition is paid.” You may lose that LATE payer permanently. And he still didn’t pay. You are bending backwards to keep the half-ass and poor students. The problem is that it causes unneeded stress for the teacher.

With contracts, the ball is in the students hands. The classes are already paid for. All the student has to do is come and make an effort. MA is not a short term commitment. It is something that takes time to do. It is an art like music. You cannot pop in and out anytime you want. If you want someting like that, do Taebo.

Like I stated before, if you are not sure, don’t sign a 1 year contract. A contract is a promise on paper. You promise to come, make an effort and PAY. The teacher promises to teach you and have that training spot and equipment available for you.

Sorry for this being so incoherent.

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[QUOTE=The Xia;759111]Personally, I’ve seen it quite a few times.

ok.

What would the forum be left with if we can’t discuss the same subject repeatedly? :p[/QUOTE]

pretty much nothing.

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FM, not any more incoherant than the rest of us. :slight_smile:

56

Was never a fan of a contract. As a businessman speaking, the are great. As a martial artist, I think they bite. I wouldn’t want a student showing up cause he is obligated. I don’t a student tainted in martial arts cause he was screwed by a contract, be it not being able to get out of it when he wants to, or some other reason.

I am a consultant currently. I am sometimes unemployed for a month or two till I can get another contract. Or sometimes I am sent outta town for months a time for a job. So contract will not work in my situation. My current school, does monthly. $125 a month include 1private lesson a week.

Back in the day when I was teaching (14+yrs ago so times have definitely changed) I only charged month to month. I would also supplement that with a 3+1. Meaning you pay for 3months up front, you get 4th month free.

My tuition would go as follow if I recall correctly that is. This was with USSD, please don’t ban me for that:

Sign up was $50 (Uniform, belt and USSD handbook :()

$85 monthly unltd group classes
3+1 (3mos upfront get 4th month free)
$130 monthly unltd grp classes and 2 half hr private a month
$50 half hour private lesson if you buy it a la carte
$1500 Black Belt program. Half up front. Pays for all your lessons including privates and colored belt test up to Black. (This was with USSD so I was forced to have this program I never sold it. If someone asked I would tell them about it. My school probably was the lowest enrollment in this in SoCal back in the day.)

$30 belt test up to Brown II
$300 Black Belt test (This fee, 100 of it, went to USSD)

Out of that, I had to pay rent in the neighborhood of $5K a month. There was a group liaibility insurance with USSD, don’t recall the amount but it was minimal. Utility came to about $100-200 a month. Plus franchise fee and buying those silly little USSD manuals. I believe we had to buy like 10 a month mandatory. So just handed it out with each sign up. I still have a box of those things.

You guys wouldn’t believe the battles I had regarding belt testing, Black Blet progs etc. since I did not believe in them. So 2 yrs later, I sold my school back to USSD and quit teaching. Have had a sour taste in my mouth since then with regards to the business aspect of owning your own MA.

I do enjoy teaching though. Looking forward to getting my black belt with my current style and helping out teach. Don’t think I will ever own my own school again.

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[QUOTE=Becca;758901]…I’m 99.9 certain my contract ran out last month, but sifu has not offered me another. I am to ranck test this month no mater what… I can see the writing on the wall and so can he. He thinks I’m going to quit 'cause I’m not making progress, and is hopping if I pass this test, I’ll stay and if I don’t pass, well…[/QUOTE]
now 100% my contract expired, as sifu hit me up for a new, albeit very flexable, contract last night after my son’s class.:smiley: and it went up for the first time in 5 years… was $30/wk for me and my son, now $37.50/wk. In that same time, gas when up well more than a dollar a gallon, and my Xcel bill doubled… makes me wonder how Sifu makes ends-meet, as this is his only job…

Kung fu contracts are like cell phone contracts. If you don’t want the contract, go find a company/sifu who doesn’t require them and shut up about being charged out the nose…

58

~150/month for two people is good, imo/ime.

that’s exactly what it would cost for two family members at my school.

85 for one for 1 month

150 for two for 1 month

195 for three for 1 month

if paying quarterly

225 for one for 3 months

330 for two for 3 months

405 for three for 3 months

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[QUOTE=Oso;759726]~150/month for two people is good, imo/ime.

that’s exactly what it would cost for two family members at my school.

85 for one for 1 month

150 for two for 1 month

195 for three for 1 month

if paying quarterly

225 for one for 3 months

330 for two for 3 months

405 for three for 3 months[/QUOTE]

That’s pretty darn tootin reasonable!! Now if you can show me the Dim-Mak. I would sign up in a heartbeat. :smiley:

But seriously, that looks like a great tuition plan.

60

dim mak or ‘death touch’ in 3 simple lessons:

1 - smack their head into the concrete really, really hard as many times as you can.

2 - twist their head violently in a full 360 degree manner, continue twisting as necessary or indicated by continued respiration

3 - crush/rip/tear/compress the larnyx for 6-8 minutes, again, as long as indicated by continued respiration.

pretty easy, really.