A short descriptive video on the MCM Wing Chun perspective on the differences between Jun Ma or turning stance, commonly used in the Ip Man lineage -vs- using turning waist which is a alternative method found in the MCM Wing Chun system as well as in the Fut Sao Wing Chun lineages. This shows how both methods are valid and how I apply it at certain situations..
I have some serious doubts about the efficacy of the presented method, but the presentation in comparison to turning stance (or rather your impression of turning stance) as used the the various HK lineages was clearly presented. Thanks for the clip.
[QUOTE=Eric_H;1285958]I have some serious doubts about the efficacy of the presented method, but the presentation in comparison to turning stance (or rather your impression of turning stance) as used the the various HK lineages was clearly presented. Thanks for the clip.[/QUOTE]
No problem..I’m glad you sort of liked it…
Is that kind of like the Bulgarian weight lifting secrets?
[QUOTE=Bullworker64;1286001]Is that kind of like the Bulgarian weight lifting secrets?[/QUOTE]
I have no idea what the Bulgarian weight lifting secret is.
[QUOTE=stonecrusher69;1286003]I have no idea what the Bulgarian weight lifting secret is.[/QUOTE]
Me neither, so I googled it:
http://www.theironsamurai.com/2010/05/23/the-secret-to-bulgarian-training-in-olympic-weightlifting/
I just skimmed the article and I’m still not sure. Seems the idea is that there really isn’t any secret. Just talent, ability and insanely hard training. And lots of steroids, of course. So that would apply to WC success and most other things too. I mean the training, not the steroids!!! 
Shifting
This is an issue that is near and dear to me. These two choices are, in my mind one of the defining aspects re; the differences in wing chun. In The Ip Man/ Hong Kong houses, this one strategy,choice…a gate, if you will, is one of the most fundamental modifications to wing chun as a whole, since it concerns the root. If the spine is the core, than this more than any other singular idea changes everything. My first wing chun style, Leung Ting emphisised this idea as the standard method to exchange energy/ deploy tools and reckon footwork.
Mr. Wrong demoing center body (waist) turning.
And the failure with mis matched methods
Mean while, arch rival and 100 percent waist turning (as is Wong Sheung Leung, Tsui Sheung Tin umongst others) demoing in Wing Chun Vs. Jeet Kune Do Vol. ! The failure of wing chun structure/tools using modified (read Leung Ting) shifting.
This exchange of energy in my opinion modifies all subsequent tools, structure and footwork.
This I think it is the brainchild of Master Leung Jan. I used to think it was an invention of the Red Boats and their restricted environmemt but shifting seems to have come after this period, with no wing chun from there back seeming to have this strategy.
This side horse shift seems totally in line with Pin Sun wing chun. This is the ‘modification’ so notorious in some WC circles. This isn’t a watered down ‘fake’ wing chun. Or deliberate gaf. The secret is to merge the two helex together for maximum effect. However, from my uninformed eye, most Hong Kong houses which mix the two cores together, there doesn’t seem to be a very deep understanding of the differences between them. If true, the ‘side body solution’ is a fundamental advancement in wing chun but must be studyed closely to blend it into the complete curriculum
[QUOTE=Happy Tiger;1286117]This is an issue that is near and dear to me. These two choices are, in my mind one of the defining aspects re; the differences in wing chun. In The Ip Man/ Hong Kong houses, this one strategy,choice…a gate, if you will, is one of the most fundamental modifications to wing chun as a whole, since it concerns the root. If the spine is the core, than this more than any other singular idea changes everything. My first wing chun style, Leung Ting emphisised this idea as the standard method to exchange energy/ deploy tools and reckon footwork.
Mr. Wrong demoing center body (waist) turning.
Mean while, arch rival and 100 percent waist turning (as is Wong Sheung Leung, Tsui Sheung Tin umongst others) demoing in Wing Chun Vs. Jeet Kune Do Vol. ! The failure of wing chun structure/tools using modified (read Leung Ting) shifting.
This exchange of energy in my opinion modifies all subsequent tools, structure and footwork.
This I think it is the brainchild of Master Leung Jan. I used to think it was an invention of the Red Boats and their restricted environmemt but shifting seems to have come after this period, with no wing chun from there back seeming to have this strategy.[/QUOTE]
The links don’t work(?)…
[QUOTE=wckf92;1286302]The links don’t work(?)…[/QUOTE]
Sorry 'bout that. Fixed
This pic. shows the mechanics of side shifted stance
And dealing with an attack
Now, this, in my opinion is a good illustration of side shifted executed with the wrong mechanics.
This is from the book Why Wing Chun Works by Alan Gibson.
Don’t walk my side of the street with this structure, that’s all I can say. 
So, which one are you advocating? The LT version?
[QUOTE=wckf92;1286331]So, which one are you advocating? The LT version?[/QUOTE]
I use both modes in my game. I structure them as I was taught with the proper relative tool positioning for each. Having never been trained in a house which mixed them ready made, I discovered for myself these points. This is a gate that links and unlinks, the theory to that is what really bears close inspection. If I understand you right, if you shift, use the modified tool structure demonstrated by LT.
[QUOTE=Happy Tiger;1286117][/quote]
He has swayed his central axis to one side, overloading the rear leg, and placing his shoulders behind his hips, with his feet very narrow. This breaks his own posture and severely limits his mobility. He does this in expectation that an idiot is going to go sailing past him when he sways off line and strikes them. All one really has to do is reface and attack the line over his rear foot that he has now overloaded and is leaning back on, shoulders behind hips. He’s very vulnerable to many forward pressuring attacks in that position on the terrible line he’s created; from leg shoots to simple refacing punch follow ups.
Mr. Wrong’s main problem here seems to be timing. He’s not really in a bad position. All he needs to do is know how to use bong to open the line for his punch from wu, turning the opponent and opening an avenue of attack. Again, timing is his problem here. If instead he swayed his body to the side and used bong to passively redirect the opponent’s punch, turning himself and not the opponent, all the opponent has to do is immediately jat with his punching hand and punch him in the face as he refaces with the second hand.
Mean while, arch rival and 100 percent waist turning (as is Wong Sheung Leung, Tsui Sheung Tin umongst others) demoing in Wing Chun Vs. Jeet Kune Do Vol. ! The failure of wing chun structure/tools using modified (read Leung Ting) shifting.
WSL never taught to fight from YJKYM and just shift to deal with an attacker. That’s stupid. You have to be dynamic and move. Turning is only done to face our line of attack on the opponent. It’s done from the waist to maintain striking range and use full body knockout power. Taan-sau is also not used to block punches like that. So, what you’re showing in these last posts has nothing to do with WSLVT.
[QUOTE=LFJ;1286335]He has swayed his central axis to one side, overloading the rear leg, and placing his shoulders behind his hips, with his feet very narrow. This breaks his own posture and severely limits his mobility. He does this in expectation that an idiot is going to go sailing past him when he sways off line and strikes them. All one really has to do is reface and attack the line over his rear foot that he has now overloaded and is leaning back on, shoulders behind hips. He’s very vulnerable to many forward pressuring attacks in that position on the terrible line he’s created; from leg shoots to simple refacing punch follow ups.
Mr. Wrong’s main problem here seems to be timing. He’s not really in a bad position. All he needs to do is know how to use bong to open the line for his punch from wu, turning the opponent and opening an avenue of attack. Again, timing is his problem here. If instead he swayed his body to the side and used bong to passively redirect the opponent’s punch, turning himself and not the opponent, all the opponent has to do is immediately jat with his punching hand and punch him in the face as he refaces with the second hand.
WSL never taught to fight from YJKYM and just shift to deal with an attacker. That’s stupid. You have to be dynamic and move. Turning is only done to face our line of attack on the opponent. It’s done from the waist to maintain striking range and use full body knockout power. Taan-sau is also not used to block punches like that. So, what you’re showing in these last posts has nothing to do with WSLVT.[/QUOTE]
WSL house does not shift at all, that’s true. That’s my point. Of the three houses I know, only LT idea this strategy. From your perspective I see why you would think it stupid.
Sigong Wong Shun Leung demoing center body turning
Tan Da
The mechanics of this center body turning are sound. Nice,no leaks.
Float, Sink, Swallow, Spit
I think I might start a thread on the traditional concept of Float, Sink, Swallow and Spit. This concept on energy exchange is at the center of side shifting, IMHO. All I can tell you at this point is, when the feel is right, this gate opens and the choice works…for me…
I’m not really getting the gist of this thread.
WSL turns differently to LT. Ok.
Which method are you advocating and which are you saying is crap? Or are both crap and you have something different?
Movement is movement in my book. I’ve been trained in the “50/50” shift; the “70/30” shift; heels only; ball of foot only, etc etc blah blah… it’s all movement to me. It’s a tool in the toolbox. Nobody is that precise anyway. And besides, WC is an idea… which grows from there.
On another note: much of this conversation depends on the reference point between the WC practitioner vs the opponent.
Carry on Lads!
[QUOTE=wckf92;1286359]Movement is movement in my book. I’ve been trained in the “50/50” shift; the “70/30” shift; heels only; ball of foot only, etc etc blah blah… it’s all movement to me. It’s a tool in the toolbox. Nobody is that precise anyway. And besides, WC is an idea… which grows from there.
On another note: much of this conversation depends on the reference point between the WC practitioner vs the opponent.
Carry on Lads![/QUOTE]
Well there you go, then