rouquan by shi yanxu.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rin1gJ4CaK0
[QUOTE=LFJ;962342]rouquan by shi yanxu.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rin1gJ4CaK0[/QUOTE]
That’s the Yi Lu set, thanks!
Hmm, interesting take on this set. Seems to have some chen new frame tjq in it.
chicken or the egg here?
hi sal,
was wondering if you know the history and origin of the separate rouquan sets.
the three sets from shi degen’s lineage, starting first with the luohan 13 shi qigong set, is said to have been created by second chan patriarch huike. (with one arm? :rolleyes:)
then there is a single set listed in the shaolin encyc. which says it was created even earlier than the above. it says batuo’s disciple, monk chou (seng chou) also known as “chan master chou” (chou chanshi), was skilled in qigong and fighting, and everyday had people come to ask for lessons from him. in order to help the old monks exercise too, he developed this rouquan set of originally 18 postures by combining his combat experience with the basic skills of luohan shiba shou. in the qing dynasty monk zhanju () edited the set and expanded it to 41 postures.
now what about the yilu and erlu rouquan sets done often by shi yanzhuang? they are visually unrelated to the other rouquan sets. what is the story on them?
[QUOTE=LFJ;967456]hi sal,
was wondering if you know the history and origin of the separate rouquan sets.
the three sets from shi degen’s lineage, starting first with the luohan 13 shi qigong set, is said to have been created by second chan patriarch huike. (with one arm? :rolleyes:)
then there is a single set listed in the shaolin encyc. which says it was created even earlier than the above. it says batuo’s disciple, monk chou (seng chou) also known as “chan master chou” (chou chanshi), was skilled in qigong and fighting, and everyday had people come to ask for lessons from him. in order to help the old monks exercise too, he developed this rouquan set of originally 18 postures by combining his combat experience with the basic skills of luohan shiba shou. in the qing dynasty monk zhanju () edited the set and expanded it to 41 postures.
now what about the yilu and erlu rouquan sets done often by shi yanzhuang? they are visually unrelated to the other rouquan sets. what is the story on them?[/QUOTE]
There was a whole Rou Quan system, usually only the old people did them, they were considered too advanced. There are a series of neigong sets that one learns fist in the system, they are the ones that Shi Degen and now Zhu Tienxi taught (6 harmony gong, Chang Yuan Gong, Luohan 13 Gong, maybe Longshen Gong, and some others).
There are 5 different clusters of Shaolin Rou Quan.
-
The one you are talking about above as shown in the Shaolin Encyc. would be the oldest.
Supposedly the Luohan 13 Gong Quan set (it is 18 postures, 22 movements counting repeat postures) was the original Rou Quan 18 postures set of Cheng Chou, it comes from staff and farmer movements (and of course is both a qigong set and a self defense set). The 18 Luohan Hands material that was added to the original 18 postures during the Qing dynasty to make it to 41 can be seen when you look at the 41 movements. -
then there is the ones that Shi Yanzhuang does (and Liu Zhenhai !), Yi Lu and Er Lu (36 postures each - important Shaolin number). Well, there’s a debate about these sets. If you look at the Shaolin encyc., there is a section before the section that shows the drawings of the routines. It is a section on “lost” routines. The Rou Quan Er Lu and San Lu mentioned there are the same as the sets that Shi Yanzhuang does, essentially. The order of the movements from the “lost” sets are out of order and jumbled up. Maybe because the names of the movements were preserved from memory? Please go there to that section and read what it says about those three sets (the Yi Lu it lists there is exactly the same as the drawings for the set you mentioned about from Batuo, so since it is not “lost” why is it listed?)
(Right before these sets are listed three Shaolin Chang Quan sets, Yi Lu is the Taizu chang quan set, er lu and san lu are really lost and people are searching for them in case they have been renamed in another Henan folk long fist style. Please read what it says there too in case there is any history stuff, let me know thanks!)
Anyways, these two sets are VERY close to Chen TJQ as well, if you combine the Xiao Hong Quan set, the Taizu Chang Quan 32 posture set, and these two Rou Quan sets, you have the complete movements to the Chen TJQ Lao Jia Yi Lu set, nothing is missing whatsoever. The Yang style emphasized the Xiao Hong quan movements because Yang Lu Chan’s village was famous for its shaolin hong quan. Both him and his first students, the famous Wu brothers (founders of Wu taiji Quan which makes Yang TJQ with Zhaobao TJQ) all are experts at Hong Quan. -
Also, there are the three sets of Rou Quan that Shi Degen taught. Which are said to come from one armed Haike. I was reading that he was an ex-military man and he came to Shaolin because he has lost his right arm in battle. Many Ming era sets descended from Jue Yuan / Bai Yufeng, such as Luohan and other Shaolin sets start on the left when stepping and begin with left hand in Honor of him, by the way. (all the OLDER pre-Ming era material descended from Zhao Kuang Yin - Chang quan, hong quan, pao quan, tongbi quan, etc., instead start on the right and follow the same beginning pattern as the Chen TJQ Yi Lu set, by the way.) There is the Rou Quan Yi Lu (which is 18 Luohan 13 Gong quan), there is a 108 movement set (I posted all these on YouTube), and supposedly a San Lu set that no one has ever seen (if you get what I was getting at with that phoney baloney guy before! Nudge, wink, wink). So far Zhu Tienxi hasn’t shown it, neither has any of his school brothers or students. I would guess that if it still exits it would be 36 or 72 postures, to make 18, 36 / 72, 108, the normal size of a series of Shaolin sets.
-
There is some Rou Quan sets that come from the Da Bei Quan style, that are said to have originated from Shaolin Rou Quan material once.
-
There are some other Shaolin Rou Quan sets from other lineages that are very different from these all. I think they come from other time periods and influences. I posted some of these on YouTube.
BUT, the 16th century Priest Dong Cheng Tongbi / Tongbei Quan styles claims that he created some Rou Quan sets after he learned Taoist Neijia Quan and he merged those ideas with Shaolin Taizu Chang Quan sets AND then taught this set to Shaolin sometime during his lifetime. I have the lyrics to the set, it is 49 postures, it is pretty much just like Chen Taiji Quan Yi Lu with some odd postures here and there that are not found in Chen TJQ.
I have seen a Shaolin Rou Quan set that is long and very much like taiji quan, but I haven’t had the chance to compare the two sets yet.
Also, sets that were perhaps Shaolin Mein Quan sets might be called Rou Quan sets now in some lineages (since both mean Soft Boxing).
And some Rou Quan sets are new called Shaolin Taiji Quan or Buddhist Taiji Quan in some lineages as well.
Do you know where any Shaolin Mein Quan sets are posted online?
to get that straight,
you’re saying the luohan 13 gong quan (the first of “3” from shi degen) “created by” huike, is supposedly the original 18 posture set created by sengchou, but edited to 41 movements in the qing dynasty?
and so sengchou’s set shown in the encyc. is the qing dynasty shi zhanju 41 posture edition, and listed as yilu to the sets done by shi yanzhuang in the lost routines section? (perhaps “lost” refers to the original 18 or precise 41, btw which section number is it?)
but the luohan 13 gong quan set is really different from yanzhuang’s sets.
which would mean that the luohan 13 gong quan is the oldest, and created by abbot batuo’s disciple sengchou in the northern wei dynasty, rather than second chan patriarch huike.
it would also mean that since the 41 posture set is yilu to the two done by yanzhuang, and it was created in the qing dynasty, then these other two sets are also qing dynasty era at most.
as for the 108 posture set then, hard telling when it was created, if not also by sengchou since it is more inline with the luohan 13 gong quan than those other sets.
the only shaolin mianquan i have seen is done by master deyang’s school. they are performing it here:
http://www.56.com/u85/v_NDM0OTgyOTg.html
[QUOTE=LFJ;967800]to get that straight,
you’re saying the luohan 13 gong quan (the first of “3” from shi degen) “created by” huike, is supposedly the original 18 posture set created by sengchou, but edited to 41 movements in the qing dynasty?
and so sengchou’s set shown in the encyc. is the qing dynasty shi zhanju 41 posture edition, and listed as yilu to the sets done by shi yanzhuang in the lost routines section? (perhaps “lost” refers to the original 18 or precise 41, btw which section number is it?)
but the luohan 13 gong quan set is really different from yanzhuang’s sets.
which would mean that the luohan 13 gong quan is the oldest, and created by abbot batuo’s disciple sengchou in the northern wei dynasty, rather than second chan patriarch huike.
it would also mean that since the 41 posture set is yilu to the two done by yanzhuang, and it was created in the qing dynasty, then these other two sets are also qing dynasty era at most.
as for the 108 posture set then, hard telling when it was created, if not also by sengchou since it is more inline with the luohan 13 gong quan than those other sets.
the only shaolin mianquan i have seen is done by master deyang’s school. they are performing it here:
http://www.56.com/u85/v_NDM0OTgyOTg.html[/QUOTE]
Well, no, of course since its Shaolin, its not that straightforward.
The 18 postures within the Luohan 13 Gong Quan set are thought to compose the original set. Not that particular set itself as it is done today, but it’s particular 18 postures.
This goes back to Bai Yufeng and Jue Yuan, as they found this old Luohan material and then were taking the Five Elements material and the 8 Directions material (which came from Shaolin Hua - Transforming character - Quan) and created their new “Attacking and Defending, Advancing and Retreating Boxing”, which was later called Wu Quan (Five Boxing, not Five animals, that came much later) and then later called Luohan Quan. They started with some simple Luohan Quan and 18 Luohan Hands sets that were still to be found; they went through the library at Shaolin to find things, as near the end of the Yuan Dynasty, Shaolin was pretty much destroyed (yes, yet again) by northern invaders. When Jue Yuan got to Shaolin not much was left, hence, he went searching for experts to bring in some rejuvenation to Shaolin Quan. He met Li Sou and then Li’s master, Bai Yufeng, who became the head librarian at Shaolin. Bai searched through the old books and rediscovered the Five Elements and Eight Directions methods and they continued from there.
Some people think that whatever was left of Shaolin Quan was preserved by Jue Yuan and Bai Yufeng and that all we have of Shaolin Quan today is descended.
During the Qing dynasty, these 18 postures are thought to be what was used as the base for Shi Zhanju to create his 41 postures version. See, Sheng Chou might have created the 18 postures set, but it was extinct by the Ming era of Jue Yuan.
(Lost stuff is in the chapter right before the chapter that has the drawings of the sets, the chapter has names of set and their movements, but no drawings, and some historical info. Check it out and see if there is anything interesting there or some clues.)
Likewise, the Yi and Er Lu sets that Shi Yanzhuang does are composed of postures from those listed as Er and San lu in the lost forms chapter. Not the exact same sequences, they seem inside out when I tried to follow them.
These two sets are very Chen Taiji like (and hence, Tongbei Quan like).
Were they created in the Qing or earlier? Chen TJQ didn’t exist before the 1650s, likewise Tongbei Quan didn’t exist before the late 1500s. Chen TJQ was developed after the massacre of Shaolin monks by the rebels.
I know that the Shaolin Encyc.'s Rou quan Yi Lu set is very different than all other Rou Quan sets. I think it was radically changed and made much more typical Shaolin Quan like during the Qing era when it became the 41 posture version. There are some postures and movements seen in the Luohan 13 Gong, both sets start out with the same Old Man / Monk Splits Wood posture, for example.
I don’t know why Huike is considered the founder of 3 sets of Rou quan that Shi Degen teaches. Nothing anywhere talks about this. There is a deep healing sitting meditation qi gong set that is attributed to him, it is for healing deep wounds in the body and so on. (Again, Liu Zhenhai has a vcd in his series showing this Huike healing qigong. Ha.)
All of this could have come from the same source 18 posture Rou Quan. So 41 postures Rou Quan was from Qing Dynasty, but Shi Degen’s set from Huike could have formed much earlier, still using the original 18 postures Rou quan to start from.
Plus, who knows what happened during the early Ming and what Jue Yuan changed or not, what they preserved or not.
Shaolin Mein Quan
I have a really good example of that set that was on google’s video site, before they took over YouTube, it was called Buddhist Taiji. I think you can still find it.
This?
thats a very neat one. i’ve not seen master deyang practice that but i have a very old picture of him in front of half a temple wall, standing on a meihua post doing the one leg stance at the beginning of that set.
[QUOTE=LFJ;967894]thats a very neat one. i’ve not seen master deyang practice that but i have a very old picture of him in front of half a temple wall, standing on a meihua post doing the one leg stance at the beginning of that set.[/QUOTE]
Is this the Mein Quan set in the video I posted or no?
It is labeled as Chan Men Taiji, which is a special Taji in the Shaolin Encyc, look it up and post what it says about it’s history, it’s important information about Taoist instruction coming into Shaolin.
[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;967930]Is this the Mein Quan set in the video I posted or no?
It is labeled as Chan Men Taiji, which is a special Taji in the Shaolin Encyc, look it up and post what it says about it’s history, it’s important information about Taoist instruction coming into Shaolin.[/QUOTE]
i’m not familiar with the set you posted. the only shaolin mianquan i know of is what i posted at the end of my previous post.
i see a shaolin zonghe taijiquan () set in the encyc.. it means “integrated taijiquan”.
the history says at the end of the qing dynasty, monk rujing () before becoming a monk studied taijiquan with with daoist menghuai () in linyi (), shandong province.
after coming to shaolin he studied qigong, dianxue, jianshu, etc.. his disciples haichun (), haitang () and others requested him to teach. so he combined shaolin hongquan and 18 shou postures with those of taijiquan to create a 30 posture set called shaolin zonghe taijiquan (integrated taijiquan).
the set has been passed on from master to disciple to this day.
Check out this guy doing Shaolin quan sets.
The middle one I recognize as the Rou Quan 108 postures set, as Xhu Tian Xi teaches it. The set he does here is all complete, all the movements are shown.
He does them VERY external and looks he is just trying to get it filmed and not going into detail, so I don’t fault him about it.
Do you recognize the first and third set he does?
He does some acrobatic stuff before the Rou Quan set.
The Shaolin Mian Quan you posted: http://www.56.com/u85/v_NDM0OTgyOTg.html
I wonder if it is this set that this “monk” calls “Rou Quan” but it is not any Rou Quan that I have ever seen before at all. It does though look like this Mian Quan set though. I bought his DVD of this set.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1obzWkKsyW8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qT1bXFqnP2s
this guy also studied under zhu tianxi.
the first one is jingangquan, same as you posted here, only the first move is cut off in his video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5SSgSrRGkU
zhang shijie also has a video of it:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTQyNTk4MDA=.html
the second one is 108 rouquan, as you pointed out.
the third one is luohanquan yilu, same as zhang shijie.
then there is luohanquan erlu, nanquan, bajiquan, changquan, luohanquan silu, dapaoquan (long).
yanlei’s rouquan
i always wondered what it would be. his introduction video doesnt really show any previews of the set.
[QUOTE=LFJ;971007]i always wondered what it would be. his introduction video doesnt really show any previews of the set.[/QUOTE]
The DVD I have doesn’t look anything like teh Rou Quan that Shi Yongxin has been documenting (and also shown in Liu Zhenhai’s VCD) nor does it look like any of Zhu Tian Xi’s Rou Quan sets.
The closest thing I have seen it look like is that Mian Quan video.
I would post the demo of the set on YouTube but they would cry about copyright.
I’ll try to review it at home and compare to this Mian Quan set.
Hopefully it is the same set, so we can lay to rest another mystery.
[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;971000]Check out this guy doing Shaolin quan sets.
The middle one I recognize as the Rou Quan 108 postures set, as Xhu Tian Xi teaches it. The set he does here is all complete, all the movements are shown.
He does them VERY external and looks he is just trying to get it filmed and not going into detail, so I don’t fault him about it.
Do you recognize the first and third set he does?
He does some acrobatic stuff before the Rou Quan set.
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNjQwODYwNjA=.html[/QUOTE]
Saw this video a while ago. The unknown sets in here are some later sets of luohan quan. In the text he says 2 lo 4 so but it really depends on where he learned it. He says in the text he is zhu tian xis student but looking at the other forms i think it is more likely he is from Hui guang wu xiao, zhang shi jies school. Zhu tian xi teaches there sometimes, he must have learned that rou quan from zhu tian xi. Later on in the vid the younger kid performs another luohan set. Also there is an older man who does a short section of jinghua ba shi quan—a kaifeng shaolin form i know. THat is the only time i have seen a video of it.
Great video. One of the only examples of the other luohan quan sets. Adds weight to the theory that tianxi knows all 18. I will find him and find out. I know where the school is. (i met zhang shi jie at a competition once, he was judging).
Notice how the luohan set at about 7 mins in has a lot of pao quan in it. Including moves from the 3rd section.
ALso on the tianxi rou quan set, do we have any more info on this, it is unlike other rou quans i have seen. two people i have talked to said he made the set himself. but Degen did show him a lot of forms he showed no one else… any info?
[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;971003]The Shaolin Mian Quan you posted: http://www.56.com/u85/v_NDM0OTgyOTg.html
I wonder if it is this set that this “monk” calls “Rou Quan” but it is not any Rou Quan that I have ever seen before at all. It does though look like this Mian Quan set though. I bought his DVD of this set.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1obzWkKsyW8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qT1bXFqnP2s[/QUOTE]
Haha,
Can’t watch the youtube videos but i can solve the 56.com ‘mian quan’ problem.
This is not mian quan. This is just some set made up for a performance, just like the ‘gong fu quan’ set after it. I have lived here for long enough, i’ve seen a thousand performances and watched them being choreographed. Its jsut bits of Chen Taiji (which everyone in dengfeng practices to some extent). put together for that particular performance. Of this I am absolutely certain. don’t bother analysing it.
On the video i cant watch, if it looks a lot like taiji, it is probably taiji…
Rou quan is very non specific. THey do any soft moves and call it rou quan. I have seen people do xiao hong quan slowly and pass it off as rou quan. It is not well known so nobody argues.
When i get back home I’ll try to post a set of shaolin mian quan, i have a video now.
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;971121]Saw this video a while ago. The unknown sets in here are some later sets of luohan quan. In the text he says 2 lo 4 so but it really depends on where he learned it. He says in the text he is zhu tian xis student but looking at the other forms i think it is more likely he is from Hui guang wu xiao, zhang shi jies school. Zhu tian xi teaches there sometimes, he must have learned that rou quan from zhu tian xi. Later on in the vid the younger kid performs another luohan set. Also there is an older man who does a short section of jinghua ba shi quan—a kaifeng shaolin form i know. THat is the only time i have seen a video of it.
Great video. One of the only examples of the other luohan quan sets. Adds weight to the theory that tianxi knows all 18. I will find him and find out. I know where the school is. (i met zhang shi jie at a competition once, he was judging).
Notice how the luohan set at about 7 mins in has a lot of pao quan in it. Including moves from the 3rd section.
ALso on the tianxi rou quan set, do we have any more info on this, it is unlike other rou quans i have seen. two people i have talked to said he made the set himself. but Degen did show him a lot of forms he showed no one else… any info?[/QUOTE]
hmm, this stuff on this video is very much what I learned, even the Chang Quan and Nan Quan we had learned. And, I’ve been told that (Gene Ching) Zhu Tianxi’s school did teach the modern wushu sets, since at the time that was what people wanted. Now they want traditional KF.
From what I know the Rou Quan set shown is original from Shi Degen, not made up by Zhu. If we watch all the sets in this video, you can clearly see that they are all made up of movements from Rou Quan. Most of the sets shown are just a mixture of Rou Quan and Pao Quan and Hong Quan. So, if they are Luohan sets, then you can see how they are all related.
I was always told to work hard to fully understand Rou Quan as it was the basis for all the later Shaolin sets. That it was bound with Luohan Quan during Bai Yufeng’s time.
Here’s a list of what is one this video, minus the parts when he is doing modern wushu or acrobatic stuff (I didn’t count the nan quan and modern chang quan wushu sets). Let me know if you can figure out with no names.
Also, I recognize the background where he filmed, it is where Zhu Tianxi and others filmed the videos I have posted on my youtube channel, back in the 1980s
here’s the routines:
1- Jingang Quan
2 - Rou Quan 108
3 - Luohan Yi Lu
4 - Luohan Er Lu
5 - Baji Quan (which set, xiao or da or? or modern wushu version)
6 - Luohan Quan Si Lu
7 - Xiao Pao Quan Yi Lu (as Tagou calls the set)
7x- Xiao Pao Quan Yi Lu, first part of the set
8 - unknown set (?)
9 - unknown set (?)
10 - kaifeng shaolin - Jing Hua Ba Shi Quan (can you post the chinese characters for this?)
11 - weapons practice stuff
12 - unknown sets - two different (?)
13 - some numchuk stuff and staff set (which one?)
posted Shaolin Rou Xing Chui
I posted a video of the Shaolin Rou Xing Chui set -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZZcJsl8r1E
The demo is by Gao Dejiang.
It’s a very short set, halfway it repeats itself on the other side.
I read that this set may be one of the oldest Shaolin sets still around, comes from combining Tang era Military martial arts with Shoulin Rou Quan.
Has anyone any more info on this set?
I learned it once, it’s very easy if you know most Shaolin internal stuff.
Something strange, this video:
http://www.56.com/u65/v_NDI3MDM3MjY.html
is titled Da Bei Quan (Great Compassion Boxing), 128 movements.
It’s the same set as the 128 (41 postures) move Shaolin Rou Quan set (nothing like any Shaolin Rou Quan I have ever seen anywhere) book that was published decades ago by Ding Shao Sz.
Here’s the more common seen version (this version is done the same exact way as the illustrations in Ding Shao Sz’s book, more so than the previous video):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBULs8lPMx4
http://www.56.com/u41/v_NDI2NzQ0ODY.html (for those that can’t access YouTube)
Supposedly:
This set was said to come through Zhang Xian San, probably the best Six Harmony Boxing master in Taiwan’s history.
However Chang tended to teach Mantis to few people and taught Shaolin mostly instead.
The problem is that:
There is the Chan Men Taiji Quan that was practiced by Shaolin monks, which was derived from the “Da Bei Xin Tuo Luo Mi” Buddhist scripts.
AND
there is a different thing that is also named Da Bei Quan, which is a style taught in Beijing by Buddhist monk Qi Yun and spreading throughout the country. Having absorbed the body and hand techniques of Bagua Zhang (Eight Trigrams Palm) and Xingyi Quan (Form and Meaning Fist), this style requires that the practitioner should combine internal and external force into one, using will, not strength. Today is is taught by Qiao Xiu Chuan, third-generation disciple of Da Bei Quan, and committee member of the Beijing Wushu Association.
Though they are named the same thing, it seems that they are two different styles,
one practiced by people in Henan (as part of Shaolin, Li Yuan Chi demonstrated the art to the general public at Henan, China in 1985)
and the other by people in Beijing (lineage from founder Qi Yun).
Anyone have any further info?