This goes back to Bai Yufeng and Jue Yuan, as they found this old Luohan material and then were taking the Five Elements material and the 8 Directions material (which came from Shaolin Hua - Transforming character - Quan) and created their new “Attacking and Defending, Advancing and Retreating Boxing”, which was later called Wu Quan (Five Boxing, not Five animals, that came much later) and then later called Luohan Quan. They started with some simple Luohan Quan and 18 Luohan Hands sets that were still to be found; they went through the library at Shaolin to find things, as near the end of the Yuan Dynasty, Shaolin was pretty much destroyed (yes, yet again) by northern invaders. When Jue Yuan got to Shaolin not much was left, hence, he went searching for experts to bring in some rejuvenation to Shaolin Quan. He met Li Sou and then Li’s master, Bai Yufeng, who became the head librarian at Shaolin. Bai searched through the old books and rediscovered the Five Elements and Eight Directions methods and they continued from there.
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Bai Yu Feng founded another style which could easily be Wu Quan … Wu Zu Quan (5 ancestors fist) above story is very similar to 5 ancestors creation story of GM Chee Kim Thong lineage.
[QUOTE=SergeTk;972816]Bai Yu Feng founded another style which could easily be Wu Quan … Wu Zu Quan (5 ancestors fist) above story is very similar to 5 ancestors creation story of GM Chee Kim Thong lineage.[/QUOTE]
This is where Five Ancestors story originally comes from:
Yi Quan was a direct student of Bai Yufeng and Jue Yuan, he later traveled with Jue Yuan to south eastern China. There he was introduced to Ma Long, who further taught him internal martial arts.
During the very beginning of the Qing Dynasty, Yi Quan later became the Shaolin teacher of the founder of Choy Gar (who was an uncle to the last Ming emperor).
From this point the Wu Quan developed into the Wu Xing Quan (Five Animals) and much later the story of the Five Ancestors developed as a legend.
[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;973044]This is where Five Ancestors story originally comes from:
Yi Quan was a direct student of Bai Yufeng and Jue Yuan, he later traveled with Jue Yuan to south eastern China. There he was introduced to Ma Long, who further taught him internal martial arts.
During the very beginning of the Qing Dynasty, Yi Quan later became the Shaolin teacher of the founder of Choy Gar (who was an uncle to the last Ming emperor).
From this point the Wu Quan developed into the Wu Xing Quan (Five Animals) and much later the story of the Five Ancestors developed as a legend.[/QUOTE]
I don’t belive the legend of Five ancestors got much to do with the style of Five Ancestors…
I have another question is Luohan Rou Quan (soft boxing) same as Louhan Ru-Yi Quan which knows as “The old man set” or “As you Wish Fist” or "Printing The Red Palm’. More i read this topic more I come to a conclusion that they are no the same even though both are soft luohan styles…
[QUOTE=SergeTk;973073]I don’t belive the legend of Five ancestors got much to do with the style of Five Ancestors…
I have another question is Luohan Rou Quan (soft boxing) same as Louhan Ru-Yi Quan which knows as “The old man set” or “As you Wish Fist” or "Printing The Red Palm’. More i read this topic more I come to a conclusion that they are no the same even though both are soft luohan styles…[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=B-Rad;957430]Sorry, it was 2000. I remember now because it was the year I tore my ACL It wasn’t part of the official performance or anything, basically at the seminar he did some taiji quan with the older folk. Looked like standard taiji quan (24 form, or one of the related forms, I’m pretty sure I recognized the sequence). I suppose it could’ve been Rou Quan and my memory is fuzzy, since I didn’t even know Rou Quan existed. Or they could’ve been showing him some Wah Lum taiji and he joined in. The guy seemed was pretty friendly I missed their actual demo performance.
GM Zhu may have been clear about it, but the Wah Lum people DEFINITELY weren’t. Was flat out told by Jeff Naayers and everyone else in Wah Lum that they were actual monks from the Shaolin Temple ;)[/QUOTE]
Hello,
I was there and what Master Zhu was teaching was some basic chan yuan gong. As far as what my Shifu, Jef Naayers had said was that Master Zhu was a Monk who had left Shaolin Temple in protest. Also, The basic line drills that were being taught in the other seminar were basics out of the Jin Gang Quan a Traditional Set from Shaolin.
Hey Sal, you seem to know a lot about the history of Shaolin. My teacher teaches TCMA, and told us Taijiquan and Wudang Taijiquan and Wudang Chung Fa were both adapted from Shaolin Taizuquan. Do you know or could you guide me to information (if it is correct) that Taizuquan is the style that Taijiquan and Wudangquan came from? Thank you if you can provide the information or point me in the correct direction. I dont doubt what my teacher tells me, I just like to research and back things up I say, as so many TCMA are so obsessed with lineage and history, which I really dont feel like it matters… But it does to some.
[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;956949]Here’s a set that is tought at the Liu borthers school in Tagou Dengfeng.
The Shaolin Rou Xing Chui - Shaolin Supple Shaped Hammers
Supposedly this set was the one that was demonstrated to the Tang Emperor by a Shaolin Monk when they were celebrating the 13 Monks that helped the new Emperor get into power.
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(28 )Shaolin Soft Shape Hammers (28 Postures)
1 - Hu Bao Tou - Tiger Wraps Head
2 - Bai Yuan Xian Guo - White Ape Offers Fruit
3 - Ban Lan Chui - Shift (Swing) Block (Deflect) Hammer
4 - E` Hu Pu Shi - Hungry Tiger Pounces on Prey
5 - Hui Shou Chui - Returning Hand Hammer
6 - Qing Long Zhua - Green Dragn Offers Claws
7 - Xie Xing Chui - Slanting Shaped Hammer
8 - Jin Ji Shang Jie - Golden Rooster Ascends Shelf
9 - Pi Za Chui - Spliting & Smashing Hammer
10 - Bai He Liang Qi - White Crane Spreads (Flashes) Wings
11 - Lian Huan Chui (Linking Hammers)
12 - Hei Xiong Liang Zhang - Black Bear Shows Palms
13 - Hang Di Chui - Pile-drive Ground Hammer
14 - Li Mao Shang Shu - Leopard Cat Ascends Tree
15 - Tao Xin Chui - Fishout Heart Hammer
16 - Mei Lu Wo Zhen - Plumflower Deer Lies on Pillow
17 - Zhui Feng Chui - Chase Wind Hammer
18 - Yao-zi Fan Shen - Sparrowhawk Flips Body
19 - Pu Tou Chui - Protect Head Hammer
20 - Du Shi Tu Xin - Poison Snake Spits out Letter
21 - Da Zhuang Chui - Strike Stump Hammer
22 - Xiong Ying Zhan Wang - Heroic Eagle (Hawk) Unfolds Towards
23 - Chong Tian Chui - Rush Sky Hammer
24 - Ye Ma Xian Ti - Wild Horse Lifts Hoof
25 - Heng Chui - Horizontal Sweeping Hammer
26 - Shi-zi Wu Hua - Lion Dancing Flower
27 - Ji Gu Chui - Beat Drum Hammer
28 - Hu Bao Tou - Tiger Wraps Head (repeat in reverse)
Starting with posture 28 you can do the whole set in reverse side.[/QUOTE]
here is a video of a form called Wu Hua Tui (5 Blossom Legs). it’s surprisingly the same as Da Tong Bi quan (of course with some minor technical differences, like any the other form as performed by monks of different lineages):
interestingly, similarity is not just in the pronunciation of the names, but there’s a large ratio of technical share between these Wu Hua Tui (which is Da Tong Bi quan) and Wu He quan. is this the sign of a relation between Wu He and Da Tong Bi quan?
Also, there are the three sets of Rou Quan that Shi Degen taught. Which are said to come from one armed Haike.
…There is the Rou Quan Yi Lu (which is 18 Luohan 13 Gong quan), there is a 108 movement set, and supposedly a San Lu set that no one has ever seen.
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they say that “Rou Quan was made by Huike, and has 3 roads.” as you said previously, the 18 postures of 13 Luohan Gong form were created by Sengchou, not Huike, and besides, it seems nobody is aware of any “3rd” road!
a natural assumption here is that of the “3 roads of Rou Quan,” they may just be referring to the long 108-movement form that Huike has created, and that it consists of 3 roads/sections, like other big SongShan Shaolin forms, which are divided into 3 roads/sections. then this long 3-road 108-movement form, made by Huike, is coupled with the shorter 18-posture old Rou Quan, whose essentials were laid by Sengchou.
does this guess seem reasonable? or is there any way to confirm or deny it?
[QUOTE=tiaji1983;1031763]Hey Sal, you seem to know a lot about the history of Shaolin. My teacher teaches TCMA, and told us Taijiquan and Wudang Taijiquan and Wudang Chung Fa were both adapted from Shaolin Taizuquan. Do you know or could you guide me to information (if it is correct) that Taizuquan is the style that Taijiquan and Wudangquan came from? Thank you if you can provide the information or point me in the correct direction. I dont doubt what my teacher tells me, I just like to research and back things up I say, as so many TCMA are so obsessed with lineage and history, which I really dont feel like it matters… But it does to some. :p[/QUOTE]
Wow, I never saw this post, sorry. I was in the hospital at the time it was posted. I have done extensive research into this, and agree completely with your teacher. Here is something that will help your understanding of that:
That’s the one attributed to monk Chou (Seng Chou), of the Northern Wei Dynasty. I think the encyclopedia said it only had like 8 postures at first, if it’s indeed the same set.
[QUOTE=LFJ;1222200]That’s the one attributed to monk Chou (Seng Chou), of the Northern Wei Dynasty. I think the encyclopedia said it only had like 8 postures at first, if it’s indeed the same set.[/QUOTE]
yeah, it is. Looks more like Luohan. it was 18 postures of Luohan first, then the other moves were added to it to make 41. So, we can see what the Luohan Looked like back in Northern Wei times.
Do you have the name for the person who expanded it and when he did it from the Shaolin Encyclopedia?
The postures have ones that were later in taiji quan, like Single Whip, White Crane Spreads Wings, and some others.
Yeah, 18 postures. The encyclopedia says it was expanded to the current 41 postures by Qing Dynasty monk Shi Zhanju who’s credited with quite a lot in the Qing.
[QUOTE=ngokfei;1221257]hey sal I see alot of your research is in the recent Kung Fu Tai Chi Shaolin Special.:D[/QUOTE]
I intentionally avoided Sal’s work on this subject for our recent cover story. That was out of respect for his research (I would have cited if there were any actual quotes), as well as my constant effort to keep things fresh. However, I can’t help it if we reached some of the same conclusions. That’s reaffirming, yes?
The Soft Fist By Gene Ching and Gigi Oh appears in our Shaolin Special 2013, which hits the newsstands next week.
Rouquan is really only the hook in this article, mostly for those that don’t really know Shaolin. The piece is more about current trends at the Shaolin Temple Cultural Center in America. Nevertheless, I’ll be eager to hear your reactions - both positive and negative. Thanks, as always, for your support.
[QUOTE=LFJ;1222228]Yeah, 18 postures. The encyclopedia says it was expanded to the current 41 postures by Qing Dynasty monk Shi Zhanju who’s credited with quite a lot in the Qing.[/QUOTE]
1727 Qing Emperor then forbade, punishable by death, any Han martial arts practice, especially at Shaolin, they knocked down all the gates and rebuilt the area to make it more accessible.
Since Shaolin monks still feared government prosecution, they secretly learnt and practiced it. During the the late 1700s/early 1800s, monks Haifa, Zhanmo, and Zhanju were among those who left Shaolin and practiced Wushu in a small monastery Shigau Monastery.
That explains Zhanyu being so involved with the design of Shaolin martial arts.
It wasn’t part of the official performance or anything, basically at the seminar he did some taiji quan with the older folk. Looked like standard taiji quan (24 form, or one of the related forms, I’m pretty sure I recognized the sequence). I suppose it could’ve been Rou Quan and my memory is fuzzy, since I didn’t even know Rou Quan existed. Or they could’ve been showing him some Wah Lum taiji and he joined in. The guy seemed was pretty friendly 
I missed their actual demo performance.