Also, how many people in the SD association? It has to be a huge number. What’s an average headcount at a school?
I’m trying to determine what the largest Kung-Fu school is in America. My guess was SD, and I’m trying to see if I am right. I don’t count Kempo, so Villari is out of the picture.
[QUOTE=yutyeesam;745082]
I’m trying to determine what the largest Kung-Fu school is in America. My guess was SD, and I’m trying to see if I am right. I don’t count Kempo, so Villari is out of the picture.
Thanks,
123[/QUOTE]
Are you talking franchise or chain Kung Fu schools? Not many.
In my experience, most black sashes after getting their sifu’s blessing, will start their own KF Kwoon. They teach the same style. Master Tat Mau Wong is the only one I know of that has a few school under his name. Master Doc Fai Wong and Master Leung Shum all have schools under their own associations. Even then the curriculum may vary by schools.
However, if we are talking style, I believe Northern Shaolin Long Fist is the most taught in KF schools here in the US. That may not be quite accurate though.
[QUOTE=yutyeesam;745082]Hi. I was wondering if those of you seniors doing Shaolin-Do could tell me if this is an accurate protrayal of the number of SD schools in the country: http://www.shaolin-do.com/schools/schoollocations.shtml
Also, how many people in the SD association? It has to be a huge number. What’s an average headcount at a school?
I’m trying to determine what the largest Kung-Fu school is in America. My guess was SD, and I’m trying to see if I am right. I don’t count Kempo, so Villari is out of the picture.
Thanks,
123[/QUOTE]
It varies by school. My area (Central TX) has maybe 600 students. There are some very large schools (eastern Tennessee, Atlanta, Kentucky, Denver, central TX) and lots of small schools (Tampa, DC, Ithaca). At a guess, there are probably 5000 SD students at any given time.
There are many SD schools that have no SD association members. Possibly 25 in my area are SD Association members. I am in the SDA, and some of my friends are, but not all.
Yes, the SDA is a seperate organization of SD schools. The SDA website is fairly accurate, but there are a few schools that I know of that are not current from that site.
I wonder if you could count SD and CSC as being the same. If so then there are a goodish number of students under this banner. I’ve also wondered about independants. I’ve heard of Black Belts leaving SD and CSC and forming their own schools.
I do know that if you look at the web sites for SD and CSC they basically have the same forms but they have slightly different names. I was wondering if there is a legal reason for this.
[QUOTE=BoulderDawg;745130]
I do know that if you look at the web sites for SD and CSC they basically have the same forms but they have slightly different names. I was wondering if there is a legal reason for this.[/QUOTE]
No, I think its just a slightly different translation/interpretation of the name. I understand some names to be changed by some schools to bring them more in line with main-stream pronounciation (chuan instead of chien for example). And yes, I would include the CSC in that. Anything under GM Sin The’s supervision.
[QUOTE=yutyeesam;745082]Hi. I was wondering if those of you seniors doing Shaolin-Do could tell me if this is an accurate protrayal of the number of SD schools in the country: http://www.shaolin-do.com/schools/schoollocations.shtml
Also, how many people in the SD association? It has to be a huge number. What’s an average headcount at a school?
I’m trying to determine what the largest Kung-Fu school is in America. My guess was SD, and I’m trying to see if I am right. I don’t count Kempo, so Villari is out of the picture.
Thanks,
123[/QUOTE]
Yes that’s a fairly accurate list of SD (including CSC banner) schools…I will get you a figure for the SDA (keep in mind not all students are SDA members)…you will have to contact CSC schools for a student count…KFJ could help you there…you will also have to contact the Mullins schools (Tenn.) for a head count there…JP can help you out there.
BQ
[QUOTE=Baqualin;745142]Yes that’s a fairly accurate list of SD (including CSC banner) schools…I will get you a figure for the SDA (keep in mind not all students are SDA members)…you will have to contact CSC schools for a student count…KFJ could help you there…you will also have to contact the Mullins schools (Tenn.) for a head count there…JP can help you out there.
BQ[/QUOTE]
I imagine there are a lot more students than association members. Every SD school has over 500 students, would that be somewhat accurate to say?
-123[/QUOTE]
Chinese Shaolin Center. Its the organization operated by the Soards.
No, its not accurate. I would dare say that most SD students are in community centers, school gyms, etc. That was my first school: part time in an elementary school gym. The large schools, like Master Joe’s, are probably the exception not the rule. My current teacher also teaches part time in a chuch fellowship hall.
[QUOTE=xcakid;745098]Are you talking franchise or chain Kung Fu schools? Not many.
In my experience, most black sashes after getting their sifu’s blessing, will start their own KF Kwoon. They teach the same style. Master Tat Mau Wong is the only one I know of that has a few school under his name. Master Doc Fai Wong and Master Leung Shum all have schools under their own associations. Even then the curriculum may vary by schools.
However, if we are talking style, I believe Northern Shaolin Long Fist is the most taught in KF schools here in the US. That may not be quite accurate though.[/QUOTE]
If you are thinking external this may be true of Northern Shaolin Long Fist ,
but if consider you are considering both external and internal I would say taiji, though that may not be accurate either.
[QUOTE=jason.;745165]
but if consider you are considering both external and internal I would say taiji, though that may not be accurate either.[/QUOTE]
I believe you are correct on that one. Cause just about any KF school will teach one form of Taiji or another(Wu/Chen/Yang) as well as Ken(m)po schools, but very rare do you see Xing Yi or Bagua. Heck there are even some Karate schools that will teach Taiji
I would say 500 would be an extreme high number for our school. I would say Denver/Boulder may have 100-300 active members at any time. I base this on who’s there when I go. On occasion we’ve had up to 50 members for a class however this is rare and usually happens around Jan/Feb.
Of course members who’s let their membership expire…That could go into the thousands.
[QUOTE=xcakid;745175]I believe you are correct on that one. Cause just about any KF school will teach one form of Taiji or another(Wu/Chen/Yang) as well as Ken(m)po schools, but very rare do you see Xing Yi or Bagua. Heck there are even some Karate schools that will teach Taiji[/QUOTE]
We teach Yang/Chen Taiji, Xing Yi, Baqua, & Liu Shing.:eek:
BQ
[QUOTE=Meat Shake;745223]SD is spreading out like a fat girl on a wooden mattress…
Not good.[/QUOTE]
Actually, it is good. I bet Shaolin Do is reaching people who would’ve:
a. never even thought of doing Kung-Fu in the first place
b. people who are in places where there probably is very little to no CMA at all
Say what one will on the vailidity/authenticity. It can’t be denied the fact that SD is effective with marketing and leadership. I think CMA school owners can learn something from SD’s organizational model. If we have the art that we think is great guns, then we should learn from the way Sin The runs his organizations.
Yes there are successful CMA schools with high numbers. But SD has CMA schools with high numbers all across the country. I really doubt any single CMA school has been able to do this with this level of success.
[QUOTE=yutyeesam;745252]Yes there are successful CMA schools with high numbers. But SD has CMA schools with high numbers all across the country. I really doubt any single CMA school has been able to do this with this level of success.
-123[/QUOTE]
Based on my experience with old school CMA masters that I have run across or studied under, which seems to be the concensus. They are less about business models or churning out intructors. They are more about teaching what they know and passing it on to a select few and not the masses. It dilutes the teaching less that way. Teach 5-10 properly and have them teach 5-10 people. Rather than teaching 100 who would then teach 1000 and the system gets diluted.
My old Sil Lum instructor taught out of a 4plex apartment. The 2 unit dnstairs was gutted out and the walls torn down to make one big area. The upstairs was where he lived. He had a bunch of students. I am sure some missed a monthly payment or two. Small one line blurb in yellow pages. He couldn’t be happier. He just wanted to be able to teach and share his art. Did not care wether or not he had a bunch of schools. Sadly I left that school after a few years to try something else.
I taught at a large group, Villari and USSD. Although the art was great. The “business model” got in the way. The “growth plan” got in the way. The teachings got diluted. Its not all about numbers, quality tends to suffer. I understand that now.
I don’t have experience with Shaolin-Do, and I sincerely hope that they don’t go by way of Villari or USSD.
The business of Kung Fu. Just for the fun of it I’ve tried to guess revenue and profit for the CSC.
I’m guessing the Soards make a good living however I don’t believe they are getting rich. As mentioned before I don’t really know the active dues paying members in the Denver/Boulder area but I would guess 200. I’m also guessing (maybe a little on the high side here but I’m not sure)that after dues, festivals and weapons the average student pays $100 a month. That’s around $240,000 in revenue for the year. After taxes and operating expenses and COGS that gets whittled down a lot. Several advantages here are that the only operating expenses are rent and utilities. Labor doesn’t seem to be a big deal as they don’t pay their instructors. Also it’s my guess is they probably avoid taxes by running close to break even every year.
I have no idea what the franchise fees bring. I do know that some of those schools are tiny so it can’t be a whole lot.
My guess is the Masters biggest money makers are putting on out of town festivals.
